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[Mercury News] OnLive assets were sold off for just $4.8 million - Page 3

post #21 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Not until you can get 5ms latency to/from the servers. No consumer wants it apart from stuff like backing saves up to the cloud and even then a lot of consumers are against that.
Latency is the issue, not bandwidth.
Even with optical fibre, pings will be too high for it and it will be noticeable.

On FiOS in Maryland I can ping my buddy in Texas (who also has FiOS) for a round trip that is consistently under 20ms. That's less than a lot of older TN panels take to refresh. A lot less than the input lag your average console gamer gets when playing on an HDTV.

There is absolutly no reason a user anywhere in the US (aside from Hawaii) couldn't game with it if they had geographically well placed and updated systems and the US had an up to date full fiber network - and we're a fairly large and low-density nation.

It might not replace ultra-high end gaming rigs, but it could certainly be a cheaper, easier, more practical and incredibly richer way to experience gaming on a low powered system. I for one welcome the day my GF can pop open her free netbook and play the same games I'm playing on my (once) $4000 rig instead of just solitaire and minesweaper. Wouldn't mind playing some Planetside on the bus to college with my smartphone either.
Edited by Zero4549 - 10/11/12 at 12:21am
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post #22 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willanhanyard View Post

Well it will eventually take off when people get faster internet and caps are taken off.
It was a really good idea and someone will reserect it.

This, the idea was too ahead of its time, the right infrastructure just isnt in place to support this....yet.
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post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Not until you can get 5ms latency to/from the servers. No consumer wants it apart from stuff like backing saves up to the cloud and even then a lot of consumers are against that.
Latency is the issue, not bandwidth.
Even with optical fibre, pings will be too high for it and it will be noticeable.

On FiOS in Maryland I can ping my buddy in Texas (who also has FiOS) for a round trip that is consistently under 20ms. That's less than a lot of older TN panels take to refresh. A lot less than the input lag your average console gamer gets when playing on an HDTV.

There is absolutly no reason a user anywhere in the US (aside from Hawaii) couldn't game with it if they had geographically well placed and updated systems and the US had an up to date full fiber network - and we're a fairly large and low-density nation.

It might not replace ultra-high end gaming rigs, but it could certainly be a cheaper, easier, more practical and incredibly richer way to experience gaming on a low powered system. I for one welcome the day my GF can pop open her free netbook and play the same games I'm playing on my (once) $4000 rig instead of just solitaire and minesweaper. Wouldn't mind playing some Planetside on the bus to college with my smartphone either.

And how likely is it to have Fibre going everywhere in the world? Australia is the only one (iirc) that is getting it rolled out to virtually every home so far. As for smartphones, dream on, any wireless connection technology won't come close to Ethernet, let alone 3G/4G.
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post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

And how likely is it to have Fibre going everywhere in the world? Australia is the only one (iirc) that is getting it rolled out to virtually every home so far. As for smartphones, dream on, any wireless connection technology won't come close to Ethernet, let alone 3G/4G.

And?

Earlier you and others were saying it would be impossible to get a good cloud streaming experience even with fiber. Not only is it already possible, it could become substantially better if we updated our ancient internet infrastructure.

Keep in mind that although both my buddy and I have FiOS, it's likely not an entirely up to date (or even entirely fiber) connection between the two of us. We're covering a lot of very low population land to ping each-other and there are inevitably a couple jumps being made on ill maintained ancient lines.


Now, if you said "you will never get the full 100% experience of using a custom top of the line gaming rig by game streaming to a cell phone out in the boonies" I'd 100% agree with you, but no one is expecting that and it isn't needed.

The people who will be using this service are the people who don't want/cant afford/don't know how to build a custom gaming rig. You know, your mainstream and casual gamer who is already used to terrible input lag, low framerate, low image quality, games. Now those games can suddenly jump from bejeweled and temple run up to minecraft (dont give me any silly PE nonsense, Trust me, I have it on my galaxy, it's like a terrible version of indev) and battlefield.

Then there is the whole demographic of people who are hardcore gamers, but who can't always be at their awesome rigs. Be it because they spend long hours at work/school, commuting, traveling, live in multiple homes or whatever other reason. You can't possibly tell me a MMO fanatic wouldn't love to be able to leave his PC and still be connected to his favorite online world right in his pocket. Sure, he might not want to run a high level PvP or dungeon with his 3G connection and crappy touch controls, but he can still manage his guild, farm for loot, chat with his buddies, help out noobs, and generally be productive and have a good time in gis game. something that is simply impossible to do with without a game streaming service.


As for it being impossible to update the global internet infrastructure, that's just silly.

Firstly, don't tell me you wouldn't want or even pay to have a full fiber network. It's not impossible by any stretch of the imagination. FiOS made massive progress in the US despite being high cost, highly throttled, and available in certain geographic regions - never mind the stupid laws we have that allow entire neighborhoods to be locked into only using a single ISP despite others being physically able and willing to provide service to that location (There is a community of 8 huge high-rise buildings just down the street from where I live. Those buildings are locked into a contract that only allows them ancient satellite internet while anyone for miles on all sides has both Verizon and Comcast to choose from).

Now Google is trying their hand at the same job and they're already putting FiOS to shame. People are even paying them just to lay down fiber in the neighborhood, never mind using it themselves.

Yes, we are a fairly opulent nation, but we are also a very low-density and self-centered one. Other nations are already well ahead of us with plans, or even current work being done, for an internet overhaul. Smaller nations may not be able to afford extensive overhauling as readily, but in time they will come too, aided in no small part by social cohesion.

Will we ever get the whole world? Probably not. Can we get the areas where any significant demographic actually play video games in the first place? Easily.
Edited by Zero4549 - 10/11/12 at 8:39am
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post #25 of 29

The problem -> ISP bottleneck CAP many people.

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post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

Snip

Look at it like this for a very simplified view, normal gaming:

Input > USB Cable/PS2 cable > PC Processes it > PC works out what everything is doing > Frames are Rendered > Goes to monitor > Monitor makes the image > Monitor displays the image

Now for OnLive and other cloud gaming services:

Input > USB/PS2 cable > PC processes it (But less intensively) > Sends to network stack to be compiled into packets > Goes to router > Goes to modem > Goes to exchanges, etc until it reaches their routers > Goes through their routers to reach that games server > Server decompiles the packet into normal data it uses > Server processes the input > Server works out what everything is doing > Server renders frames > Server compresses frames to save bandwidth > Completed frame gets sent to network stack to be compiled into packets > To companies routers > to internet, etc > to your modem > to your router > Your PC decompiles the packets > Decompress the video > Send to display > Display makes image > Display displays the image.

That's missing a lot and probably is incorrect in a lot of the technical aspects, but you get my point right? You're doing most of what your PC normally does (Sending a frame every 16.67ms for a 60Hz monitor, taking input, etc) in regards to latency but then also adding a bunch of extra stuff to the network stack, internet, etc, so you're not really cutting much latency out when you're talking about hardware capable of actually playing at 60fps, and then you're also adding a crapload extra on top of that, read this, it shows that 200ms latency (Plus whatever display lag he had) is where you can notice the lag..Now, assuming everyone can get a 20ms point to point connection, with the additional overhead on top of that, you're going to need to have insanely low input latency. Literally; game technology just isn't there and even if it was, it'll still be iffy for home users; I notice input lag on GTA IV with a setup that averages around 40us DPC latency (A very important metric for Windows input performance) and a PS2 keyboard and USB wired mouse and I'm not even that sensitive to it (I can go from 60fps to 30fps and barely notice the drop), imagine what someone who can tell the difference is like? You've virtually cut every game except casual games, a few action games and RTS out simply because everything else requires too little input latency for any infrastructure to support it bar having a Singapore like density.

Where it does really makes sense is smartphones but as I said, 4G and 3G are always going to have too high of a ping...I can't speak for 4G (And I hear pings are improved somewhat) but this is at 4:30am on HSPDA+ (For reference, same phone on my WiFi). Now, imagine what it's going to be in a busy city center when everyone and their dog has their smartphone out asking for Twitter and facebook updates all the time, etc? In Melbournes CBD (And many other places internationally, I've heard) speed drops to nearly zero because so many people are using the wireless phone internet at once, what about during the day in a country town of 100,000 people like I am in that is connected to fibre already? I hit 104ms ping on 3G when virtually no-one is awake, remind me and I'll test when it's 12pm if you really want.
Currently, cellular technology is just going to have far too high of a ping to really do cloud gaming at all, even normal fibre technology is a bit iffy; I have copper for less than 100m on my internet, it goes from the front of my house to the box literally 4 houses down the street; which is optic fibre to the exchange and beyond (How else would I hit 2MB/s on Steam on ADSL2+ when I'm 3.5KM away? I should be lucky to hit 2Mb/s, let alone 2MB/s.), naturally it would improve if it was true fibre the entire way but even with fibre speeds..You get my point.

As for Fibre, Australia already has the NBN coming (Where I live is one of the first spots to get it, actually) as I said; I don't want it until I can get an unlimited plan for AU$39.99 a month like I have on ADSL2+, hitting 2MB/s easily is enough for me right now and I'd rather the unlimited usage over speed any day.

Yes, Onlive looks comparable if not better than Xbox 360/PS3/Wii, but input lag is far worse from what I have heard (I don't notice much more input lag on 360/PS3 than I do on PC, so I have no idea what you're talking about there) and that's the killer.
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post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Look at it like this for a very simplified view, normal gaming:
Input > USB Cable/PS2 cable > PC Processes it > PC works out what everything is doing > Frames are Rendered > Goes to monitor > Monitor makes the image > Monitor displays the image
Now for OnLive and other cloud gaming services:
Input > USB/PS2 cable > PC processes it (But less intensively) > Sends to network stack to be compiled into packets > Goes to router > Goes to modem > Goes to exchanges, etc until it reaches their routers > Goes through their routers to reach that games server > Server decompiles the packet into normal data it uses > Server processes the input > Server works out what everything is doing > Server renders frames > Server compresses frames to save bandwidth > Completed frame gets sent to network stack to be compiled into packets > To companies routers > to internet, etc > to your modem > to your router > Your PC decompiles the packets > Decompress the video > Send to display > Display makes image > Display displays the image.
That's missing a lot and probably is incorrect in a lot of the technical aspects, but you get my point right? You're doing most of what your PC normally does (Sending a frame every 16.67ms for a 60Hz monitor, taking input, etc) in regards to latency but then also adding a bunch of extra stuff to the network stack, internet, etc, so you're not really cutting much latency out when you're talking about hardware capable of actually playing at 60fps, and then you're also adding a crapload extra on top of that, read this, it shows that 200ms latency (Plus whatever display lag he had) is where you can notice the lag..Now, assuming everyone can get a 20ms point to point connection, with the additional overhead on top of that, you're going to need to have insanely low input latency. Literally; game technology just isn't there and even if it was, it'll still be iffy for home users; I notice input lag on GTA IV with a setup that averages around 40us DPC latency (A very important metric for Windows input performance) and a PS2 keyboard and USB wired mouse and I'm not even that sensitive to it (I can go from 60fps to 30fps and barely notice the drop), imagine what someone who can tell the difference is like? You've virtually cut every game except casual games, a few action games and RTS out simply because everything else requires too little input latency for any infrastructure to support it bar having a Singapore like density.
Where it does really makes sense is smartphones but as I said, 4G and 3G are always going to have too high of a ping...I can't speak for 4G (And I hear pings are improved somewhat) but this is at 4:30am on HSPDA+ (For reference, same phone on my WiFi). Now, imagine what it's going to be in a busy city center when everyone and their dog has their smartphone out asking for Twitter and facebook updates all the time, etc? In Melbournes CBD (And many other places internationally, I've heard) speed drops to nearly zero because so many people are using the wireless phone internet at once, what about during the day in a country town of 100,000 people like I am in that is connected to fibre already? I hit 104ms ping on 3G when virtually no-one is awake, remind me and I'll test when it's 12pm if you really want.
Currently, cellular technology is just going to have far too high of a ping to really do cloud gaming at all, even normal fibre technology is a bit iffy; I have copper for less than 100m on my internet, it goes from the front of my house to the box literally 4 houses down the street; which is optic fibre to the exchange and beyond (How else would I hit 2MB/s on Steam on ADSL2+ when I'm 3.5KM away? I should be lucky to hit 2Mb/s, let alone 2MB/s.), naturally it would improve if it was true fibre the entire way but even with fibre speeds..You get my point.
As for Fibre, Australia already has the NBN coming (Where I live is one of the first spots to get it, actually) as I said; I don't want it until I can get an unlimited plan for AU$39.99 a month like I have on ADSL2+, hitting 2MB/s easily is enough for me right now and I'd rather the unlimited usage over speed any day.
Yes, Onlive looks comparable if not better than Xbox 360/PS3/Wii, but input lag is far worse from what I have heard (I don't notice much more input lag on 360/PS3 than I do on PC, so I have no idea what you're talking about there) and that's the killer.

I would have agreed with you a couple years ago. In fact I did. I said the same things you are saying now and the conclusion was always that streaming a game would not work due to latency.

But you know what? One of my friends did in fact get onlive. He gave me his username and password to play with it. Granted I'm on fiber as previously mentioned, but everything was completely playable. Now I have the same games installed on my computer, and I certainly do notice input lag, video compression artifacts, lack of customization options. I wouldn't prefer to play that way because of it, but then I also do not prefer to play on consoles hooked up to HDTVs.

In all honesty, I have played games on this same friend's PS3 that both had more input lag AND looked visually worse. Never mind the fact that consoles are restricted to console games or the fact that this could be done on any internet connected device, not just my computer.

My point is, its possible. Not just in the future and not just with extensive overhauling of the infrastructure. It can be done right now with currently implemented (outdated) technologies assuming you have a good internet connection and live in an area that has an onlive server. There are obviously limitations at the moment, but as technologies progress (and people incorporate the internet and digital devices more and more into their daily lives), these limitations will very much become a thing of the past.

The bottom line is game streaming works. It's playable. It's really not that expensive. It might not be up to par with a dedicated gaming rig, but it doesn't need to be. It's more than enough for the mainstream and casual gamers, and after all, they are the majority, they are the ones who companies profit off of.
Edited by Zero4549 - 10/11/12 at 11:49am
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post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Look at it like this for a very simplified view, normal gaming:
Input > USB Cable/PS2 cable > PC Processes it > PC works out what everything is doing > Frames are Rendered > Goes to monitor > Monitor makes the image > Monitor displays the image
Now for OnLive and other cloud gaming services:
Input > USB/PS2 cable > PC processes it (But less intensively) > Sends to network stack to be compiled into packets > Goes to router > Goes to modem > Goes to exchanges, etc until it reaches their routers > Goes through their routers to reach that games server > Server decompiles the packet into normal data it uses > Server processes the input > Server works out what everything is doing > Server renders frames > Server compresses frames to save bandwidth > Completed frame gets sent to network stack to be compiled into packets > To companies routers > to internet, etc > to your modem > to your router > Your PC decompiles the packets > Decompress the video > Send to display > Display makes image > Display displays the image.
That's missing a lot and probably is incorrect in a lot of the technical aspects, but you get my point right? You're doing most of what your PC normally does (Sending a frame every 16.67ms for a 60Hz monitor, taking input, etc) in regards to latency but then also adding a bunch of extra stuff to the network stack, internet, etc, so you're not really cutting much latency out when you're talking about hardware capable of actually playing at 60fps, and then you're also adding a crapload extra on top of that, read this, it shows that 200ms latency (Plus whatever display lag he had) is where you can notice the lag..Now, assuming everyone can get a 20ms point to point connection, with the additional overhead on top of that, you're going to need to have insanely low input latency. Literally; game technology just isn't there and even if it was, it'll still be iffy for home users; I notice input lag on GTA IV with a setup that averages around 40us DPC latency (A very important metric for Windows input performance) and a PS2 keyboard and USB wired mouse and I'm not even that sensitive to it (I can go from 60fps to 30fps and barely notice the drop), imagine what someone who can tell the difference is like? You've virtually cut every game except casual games, a few action games and RTS out simply because everything else requires too little input latency for any infrastructure to support it bar having a Singapore like density.
Where it does really makes sense is smartphones but as I said, 4G and 3G are always going to have too high of a ping...I can't speak for 4G (And I hear pings are improved somewhat) but this is at 4:30am on HSPDA+ (For reference, same phone on my WiFi). Now, imagine what it's going to be in a busy city center when everyone and their dog has their smartphone out asking for Twitter and facebook updates all the time, etc? In Melbournes CBD (And many other places internationally, I've heard) speed drops to nearly zero because so many people are using the wireless phone internet at once, what about during the day in a country town of 100,000 people like I am in that is connected to fibre already? I hit 104ms ping on 3G when virtually no-one is awake, remind me and I'll test when it's 12pm if you really want.
Currently, cellular technology is just going to have far too high of a ping to really do cloud gaming at all, even normal fibre technology is a bit iffy; I have copper for less than 100m on my internet, it goes from the front of my house to the box literally 4 houses down the street; which is optic fibre to the exchange and beyond (How else would I hit 2MB/s on Steam on ADSL2+ when I'm 3.5KM away? I should be lucky to hit 2Mb/s, let alone 2MB/s.), naturally it would improve if it was true fibre the entire way but even with fibre speeds..You get my point.
As for Fibre, Australia already has the NBN coming (Where I live is one of the first spots to get it, actually) as I said; I don't want it until I can get an unlimited plan for AU$39.99 a month like I have on ADSL2+, hitting 2MB/s easily is enough for me right now and I'd rather the unlimited usage over speed any day.
Yes, Onlive looks comparable if not better than Xbox 360/PS3/Wii, but input lag is far worse from what I have heard (I don't notice much more input lag on 360/PS3 than I do on PC, so I have no idea what you're talking about there) and that's the killer.

I would have agreed with you a couple years ago. In fact I did. I said the same things you are saying now and the conclusion was always that streaming a game would not work due to latency.

But you know what? One of my friends did in fact get onlive. He gave me his username and password to play with it. Granted I'm on fiber as previously mentioned, but everything was completely playable. Now I have the same games installed on my computer, and I certainly do notice input lag, video compression artifacts, lack of customization options. I wouldn't prefer to play that way because of it, but then I also do not prefer to play on consoles hooked up to HDTVs.

In all honesty, I have played games on this same friend's PS3 that both had more input lag AND looked visually worse. Never mind the fact that consoles are restricted to console games or the fact that this could be done on any internet connected device, not just my computer.

My point is, its possible. Not just in the future and not just with extensive overhauling of the infrastructure. It can be done right now with currently implemented (outdated) technologies assuming you have a good internet connection and live in an area that has an onlive server. There are obviously limitations at the moment, but as technologies progress (and people incorporate the internet and digital devices more and more into their daily lives), these limitations will very much become a thing of the past.

The bottom line is game streaming works. It's playable. It's really not that expensive. It might not be up to par with a dedicated gaming rig, but it doesn't need to be. It's more than enough for the mainstream and casual gamers, and after all, they are the majority, they are the ones who companies profit off of.

I still don't know how you're seeing input lag on a PS3, I see a tiny amount but not that much at all; obviously I can't use OnLive and I'm going from other peoples stories and videos but I can see some pretty major input lag there (Look at when his hand moves for the trackpad vs when it moves on screen), that kind of input lag is no-where near what you get on a console or PC unless you have some pretty serious issues with the setup; I was getting input lag like that and it made TF2 unplayable until I fixed the bug causing it.
I've also played my PS3 Slim and now 3 Xbox 360s on multiple TVs, an ancient CRT one, a 42" Cheap HDTV and a 55" Sony Bravia among others, CRTs have practically no lag at all and the lag (There obviously is some) is unnoticeable on a wireless 360/PS3 controller on it.
Edited by Brutuz - 10/11/12 at 1:06pm
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post #29 of 29
Not sure how lag would be any worse on consoles than PC, I would argue the contrary. The lag is when you use the wireless controller which is 60ms, still imperceptible. Just use a wired controller.
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