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Anyone as excited as I am about Chris Roberts 'Star Citizen'? - Page 3  

post #21 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Yes yes YES I understand all of this, but haven't you seen how this goes? Game goes into alpha and everybody is screaming because nothing works, so the devs spend a ridiculous amount of time debugging all options, meanwhile people who are using a superior control method are getting their practice in. By beta, the gap is obvious, and the people using the inferior control methods are screaming murder on the boards, so next thing you know commands are being removed and collapsed into each other, option wheels start popping up, the mouse gets gimped because the menus are being built for everything else, etc...
I'm not saying his intentions aren't good, I'm saying that just having the option there is dangerous, because a few stupid people who don't realize that their preferences inconvenience the majority, and likely don't care. I can get behind every control scheme that is viable for the game, except the analog pad, because it's so far down the food chain that it risks dragging everything else into the void with it.

Except you're forgetting just how niche space sims are now. You wonder why we haven't seen a good one in almost 10 years? It's a niche market, and those players IN that niche, are NOT going to be the ones whining that their controller doesn't work right. They're going to be the ones that have a flightstick, and a trackir, or some combination thereof. Even I have a $40 Thrustmast T-Flight HOTAS X and I'm nowhere near hardocre about sims. I played Freelancer with a Mouse/KB back in the day.
 
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post #22 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by blampars View Post

Yeah I hear what you're saying. And I would not be hurt at all to hear they have removed support for gamepads. I guess we'll just have to see how it goes wink.gif From my own point of view, I don't know a single PC Gamer that uses a gamepad except in some rare instances (mainly pc ports ugh.. allen wake). Considering this, I would think that people trying to use a gamepad exclusively would be at the minority. Especially people who are pledging money and getting into Alpha/Beta.

Only reason I see for getting a gamepad on PC is for people who own two or three racing games. Not enough to bother investing in a wheel, too many to allow to sit and gather dust. I fall in this category, and I still can't motivate myself to buy one simply because it's been so long since I've used one they don't even feel right in my hands.

Edit: accidentally clicked submit.

I would think that people buying into the alpha/beta would be the more dedicated type also, but I'm in the hawken alpha and the PS2 beta right now, and the posts I see getting the most attention on the forums from the devs from these two PC-exclusive titles are the whiner posts. People talking about how the game doesn't fit their schedule because they only play an average of 15 minutes, people who don't like the flight controls because they don't have the common sense to customize them in the setup menu, so they ask for a nerf on the opposing team, people who think balance means that the trigger on their gamepad is the IWIN button. These people bought their way into beta and alpha, and a lot of them are saying that because they did they're entitled to the game working as they want it to.

Read that last bit again. I'm dead serious. Go to the boards and look for yourself.
Edited by Ganf - 10/14/12 at 1:16pm
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post #23 of 459
There will be full joystick support for almost everything out there... Like there has been in the past with Chris Roberts' games. No doubt.
post #24 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

Except you're forgetting just how niche space sims are now. You wonder why we haven't seen a good one in almost 10 years? It's a niche market, and those players IN that niche, are NOT going to be the ones whining that their controller doesn't work right. They're going to be the ones that have a flightstick, and a trackir, or some combination thereof. Even I have a $40 Thrustmast T-Flight HOTAS X and I'm nowhere near hardocre about sims. I played Freelancer with a Mouse/KB back in the day.

Space sims were only niche because none were getting released, and the period that gaming culture was in. There are several good space sims on the horizon, and they're all getting a huge amount of attention. Not the definition of niche anymore.
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post #25 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

Oh I know, I'm the one saying that a controller isn't a bad thing when it supports everything else too. I still play driving and racing games with a controller because I haven't coughed up the money for a G27 or a Fanatec wheel yet. A game supporting a controller isn't the end of the world, it just hinders my ability to play the game well, not the abilities that are in the game. I can drive fine with a controller, but I could drive BETTER with a wheel. Same goes for this, you can probably fly well enough with a controller, but certainly a joystick/throttle combo will allow for much better, more precise control

I know, I'm agreeing with you smile.gif
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post #26 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Space sims were only niche because none were getting released, and the period that gaming culture was in. There are several good space sims on the horizon, and they're all getting a huge amount of attention. Not the definition of niche anymore.

"several" games "on the horizon" is a great definition of niche. Look at the number of shooters releasing every year, or the number of thrid person games, or the number of MMOS.

Now compare that to how many space sims we get each year. Niche, plain and simple. I'm not saying niche is bad, it's just that in the last decade, no BIG devs have wanted to touch them because they are a niche market. The industry is all about money these days and it's taken the indie movement, and the Kickstarter idea to finally allow these specialized games to finally come to fruition. I mean even look at Project CARS, racing games aren't niche, and arguably neither are sim-style ones, but even Slightly Mad went the self produced with crowd-funding to make the game they truly wanted without being force-fed by publishers.

Space sims are still niche, even with a few games on the horizon, they don't sell big, and haven't since the early 90's, and to some extent the late 90s/early 2000s with Freespace 1 and 2, and Freelancer) but that was a different time, and a different market. With publishers getting so console centric these days, a GOOD space sim simply can't be released by a major publisher, it's too much of a 'monetary risk' for them.

And you know what? I'm happy that they're still niche, because it means more care goes into them by the devs instead of just hashing out a yearly update.
 
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post #27 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

"several" games "on the horizon" is a great definition of niche. Look at the number of shooters releasing every year, or the number of thrid person games, or the number of MMOS.
Now compare that to how many space sims we get each year. Niche, plain and simple. I'm not saying niche is bad, it's just that in the last decade, no BIG devs have wanted to touch them because they are a niche market. The industry is all about money these days and it's taken the indie movement, and the Kickstarter idea to finally allow these specialized games to finally come to fruition. I mean even look at Project CARS, racing games aren't niche, and arguably neither are sim-style ones, but even Slightly Mad went the self produced with crowd-funding to make the game they truly wanted without being force-fed by publishers.
Space sims are still niche, even with a few games on the horizon, they don't sell big, and haven't since the early 90's, and to some extent the late 90s/early 2000s with Freespace 1 and 2, and Freelancer) but that was a different time, and a different market. With publishers getting so console centric these days, a GOOD space sim simply can't be released by a major publisher, it's too much of a 'monetary risk' for them.
And you know what? I'm happy that they're still niche, because it means more care goes into them by the devs instead of just hashing out a yearly update.

Big devs made it a niche market because the big money was in console FPS's and MMO's. Chicken and egg scenario. Freespace 2 was arguably the last big space sim to come out. It didn't flop, the company went under because of bad business practices. There were a couple others that flopped because they really were bad, and after that the excuse that space sims were too niche started popping up to explain these failures, because that's easier than telling your boss you made a crappy product or you weren't paying attention to what the nerds in accounting were telling you. The boss being investors in these cases. The reason these games are going to crowdfunding is because they know they have a good market, but these games also require a lot of up-front investment, and big game publishers are absolutely convinced that the only way they're going to make money is the way they're making it now, and that anything else isn't worth touching. Space sims weren't getting released because there was no way to get them published, period. No publisher capable of making sure that it would reach it's demographic would get near them, exactly because of all of this "niche" talk floating around.

The fact is the market hasn't changed on PC. We just didn't have any options because we weren't given any. Crowdfunding and digital distribution means that we'll be seeing a lot more of what we like, and the fact that we actually have more than 1 space sim coming out, wheras before we could go years without one even being mentioned, is definitive proof as to the fact that they have a high demand. Because even though there is a sizable market for them, it's a market that is easily saturated. They require a lot of time invested and players who pick one often stay with it, much like an MMO.
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post #28 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Big devs made it a niche market because the big money was in console FPS's and MMO's. Chicken and egg scenario. Freespace 2 was arguably the last big space sim to come out. It didn't flop, the company went under because of bad business practices. There were a couple others that flopped because they really were bad, and after that the excuse that space sims were too niche started popping up to explain these failures, because that's easier than telling your boss you made a crappy product or you weren't paying attention to what the nerds in accounting were telling you. The boss being investors in these cases. The reason these games are going to crowdfunding is because they know they have a good market, but these games also require a lot of up-front investment, and big game publishers are absolutely convinced that the only way they're going to make money is the way they're making it now, and that anything else isn't worth touching. Space sims weren't getting released because there was no way to get them published, period. No publisher capable of making sure that it would reach it's demographic would get near them, exactly because of all of this "niche" talk floating around.
The fact is the market hasn't changed on PC. We just didn't have any options because we weren't given any. Crowdfunding and digital distribution means that we'll be seeing a lot more of what we like, and the fact that we actually have more than 1 space sim coming out, wheras before we could go years without one even being mentioned, is definitive proof as to the fact that they have a high demand. Because even though there is a sizable market for them, it's a market that is easily saturated. They require a lot of time invested and players who pick one often stay with it, much like an MMO.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with all of that. I loved the Freespace series, and I think the last big space sim was Freelancer, didn't that come out after Freespace 2? I can't remember but I loved both.

Fact of the matter here is, it doesn't matter HOW a genre became niche, it just did. And when the last GOOD (note I said that in my last post too) space sim came out was nearly a decade ago, and in that time, only indie devs have started making any, and modders have been keeping old ones alive. Big devs/publishers still refuse to make them (whether it be because old ones flopped, or because they don't think they'll do well revenue-wise) so it's still a niche market, and I don't mean that in the cliche term. Again, a 'few' games coming out in the next few years does not a major genre make.
 
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post #29 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with all of that. I loved the Freespace series, and I think the last big space sim was Freelancer, didn't that come out after Freespace 2? I can't remember but I loved both.
Fact of the matter here is, it doesn't matter HOW a genre became niche, it just did. And when the last GOOD (note I said that in my last post too) space sim came out was nearly a decade ago, and in that time, only indie devs have started making any, and modders have been keeping old ones alive. Big devs/publishers still refuse to make them (whether it be because old ones flopped, or because they don't think they'll do well revenue-wise) so it's still a niche market, and I don't mean that in the cliche term. Again, a 'few' games coming out in the next few years does not a major genre make.

Niche market would mean that it only appeals to a select few, but you just agreed with me that it doesn't just appeal to a select few, that there are a large amount of people that it appeals to. The current state of the market does not make it niche, it makes it ignored.

Like I said, the whole niche thing should have never started, and it will only end when people stop misinterpreting it.

Edit: I need to stop leaving my mouse hovering above the submit button.

If all the market for the genre can handle is a few titles because of the behavior of the player-base, which is to play one and only one, then that makes the amount of upcoming titles perfect. A major genre isn't defined by the amount of content, but by the amount that that content is appreciated. By your definition oil painting would be niche, because only a small percentage of the populace actually goes to a mueseum more than once or twice in their life. Any art enthusiast, however, would tell you that it's one of the most mainstream medias in classic art, because it is so widely appreciated. Even people who don't play space sims can appreciate that they're frickin' awesome. Ask people who don't play BF3 if they feel any appreciation for it.
Edited by Ganf - 10/14/12 at 2:16pm
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post #30 of 459

Looks interesting... got my money. 

 
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