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post #31 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Niche market would mean that it only appeals to a select few, but you just agreed with me that it doesn't just appeal to a select few, that there are a large amount of people that it appeals to. The current state of the market does not make it niche, it makes it ignored.
Like I said, the whole niche thing should have never started, and it will only end when people stop misinterpreting it.
Edit: I need to stop leaving my mouse hovering above the submit button.
If all the market for the genre can handle is a few titles because of the behavior of the player-base, which is to play one and only one, then that makes the amount of upcoming titles perfect. A major genre isn't defined by the amount of content, but by the amount that that content is appreciated. By your definition oil painting would be niche, because only a small percentage of the populace actually goes to a mueseum more than once or twice in their life. Any art enthusiast, however, would tell you that it's one of the most mainstream medias in classic art, because it is so widely appreciated. Even people who don't play space sims can appreciate that they're frickin' awesome. Ask people who don't play BF3 if they feel any appreciation for it.

Lol, probably a good idea.

I have but don't play BF3, and can honestly say I don't really appreciate it. Especially with what they've done to the series. I appreciate BF2, 2142 and BC2.

EDIT: The issue is, you're looking at the idea of 'niche' from the consumer standpoint, not the industry standpoint that big devs/publishers look at it from. In THEIR definition, space sims are entirely niche.
Edited by Marafice Eye - 10/14/12 at 2:32pm
 
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post #32 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

Lol, probably a good idea.
I have but don't play BF3, and can honestly say I don't really appreciate it. Especially with what they've done to the series. I appreciate BF2, 2142 and BC2.

So given the trends in FPS, and given the trends in space sims, which is has the more desirable future? Which games are players going to be more appreciative and supportive of?

That defines a genre.

We couldn't support space sims because we had no viable method to. That's changed. I hope the average player's mentality changes with it. We could all benefit.
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post #33 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

So given the trends in FPS, and given the trends in space sims, which is has the more desirable future? Which games are players going to be more appreciative and supportive of?
That defines a genre.
We couldn't support space sims because we had no viable method to. That's changed. I hope the average player's mentality changes with it. We could all benefit.

Again, supportive of doesn't mean cash flow to the industry bigwigs. I'm not saying you're wrong, and as I said I agree with you, but you need to look at it from the bigwig point of view, what will make the most money? A niche market (not player-base, but money market) game that players are going to play for a long time? Or a yearly rehash of the same crap that millions of people happily hand out their $60 for? Niche by THEIR definition, is what a space sim is.
 
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post #34 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

Again, supportive of doesn't mean cash flow to the industry bigwigs. I'm not saying you're wrong, and as I said I agree with you, but you need to look at it from the bigwig point of view, what will make the most money? A niche market (not player-base, but money market) game that players are going to play for a long time? Or a yearly rehash of the same crap that millions of people happily hand out their $60 for? Niche by THEIR definition, is what a space sim is.

Crowdfunding = no bigwigs involved.

Big money isn't in game development, it's in game publishing. Crowdfunding bypasses them, and bypasses their problems. Funny thing about crowdfunding, RSI is going to make more money off of this game if it doesn't sell one copy beyond the crowdfunding goal than they would if they had gone with a publisher and sold 3 times as many. Who do you think is happy about that?
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post #35 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Crowdfunding = no bigwigs involved.
Big money isn't in game development, it's in game publishing. Crowdfunding bypasses them, and bypasses their problems. Funny thing about crowdfunding, RSI is going to make more money off of this game if it doesn't sell one copy beyond the crowdfunding goal than they would if they had gone with a publisher and sold 3 times as many. Who do you think is happy about that?

Again, I'm not arguing that point. I'm explaining why we haven't had a BIG space sim release in a decade, and it's because the industry changed to console-centric cash hogs, exactly what I've been saying. Crowd-funding is a brilliant idea, one I fully support (bought the Full Team Member pack for Project CARS the other day), but that doesn't change the fact that in the industry's terms (what I've been saying this whole time) space sims are niche. I never said we as consumers would appreciate them less, or be less supportive of them since they're not published by big companies. I've been agreeing with you on those points. My point has always been that the reason we haven't had any GOOD or big space sims in 10 years is because the industry deemed them a niche market, and not profitable enough. Just because we suddenly have the crowd-funding ability doesn't change that fact. You could argue that if we'd had the technology early, we could have had the light bulb, or the tv years before we did, that's not a valid argument as up until the last year or so, the industry was all we had and that argument could be used for anything.

If you listen to Chris talk about this, he's been coming up with this for nearly 20 years after he left the industry. In fact, I think the entire industry is facing a HUGE change soon as you look at all the people just up and leaving, and oddly enough, all using the same excuse "I've been doing this for so long, it's time to move on" which I read as, 'I'm tired of the way publishers are forcing our hands on what we make, I'm out'

Again, my entire point has been that from the industry's view, space sims have become a niche market. The general population will happily cough up $60 dollars for something rehashed every 6-12 months, and the companies rake in the money with little effort, why would they want to change? They don't, that why the indie/crowdsource boom has been just that, a boom. Look at how much money Minecraft has made? Look how much money the Humble Indie Bundle makes each time they have one. These may not be niche by OUR definition, but they are by the industry definition.
 
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post #36 of 459
What the industry says and what they really are are two different things. You've had me talking in circles about that for two hours now. wha-smiley.png

You aren't saying that the industry defines consumer interest are you? That would put what you've been saying into context, but I would be very disappointed in you.
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post #37 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

What the industry says and what they really are are two different things. You've had me talking in circles about that for two hours now. wha-smiley.png
You aren't saying that the industry defines consumer interest are you? That would put what you've been saying into context, but I would be very disappointed in you.

No, but consumer interest and what actually pulls in money aren't mutually inclusive to the industry. Like most folks here on OCN I find the CoD games to be terrible, and yet millions of people still shell out $60+ every time one gets released. Yet games like Star Citizen, that you and I have interest in, are deemed niche and not profitable by the industry as shown quite well in the last decade since consoles became a huge deal. The industry defines the consumer interest for the general population, if they didn't what else could possibly explain the stagnation in games and game quality the last 5 years? Sure we have a few gems here and there, but what happened to the golden age of the 90s? Where the majority of games were good? Worth buying? Fun to play? etc etc.

The fact is, too many people out there will gladly pay for crap, and the industry folks know it. Now the majority of games are either rehashes of rehashes, or just not up to par. The standards have been lowered, and the problem is too many people don't care. They vote with their wallet and their vote is for more of the same. The industry folks are no longer taking big risks, or huge leaps anymore when it comes to impressive games.

So again I say to you, what WE define as good and not a niche, is not what THEY define as good and not niche. To them, if a game comes out, and people play it for years without paying any more, that's not good enough. They want us to buy smaller and smaller DLC, pay more and more money for maps, some of which are rehashed from previous game, pay more for content that quite possibly could have/should have been in the base game. (not all DLC is like this, but some is) And you want to tell me that the industry DOESN'T dictate interest for the majority? I've repeated this many times, WE (as in you and me, and many folks here on OCN or in the PC market in general) are NOT the industry's main demographic, WE are the niche in the industry. To us it may not feel like it, but to them it is what it is, and a PC exclusive space sim is not profitable for them, but a $60 rehash with $15 map packs is the prime definition of profitable, and to them, THAT is what matters.

Once again, in OUR definition, space sims are not and shouldn't be, niche, but to the industry, you better believe they are.
Edited by Marafice Eye - 10/14/12 at 3:48pm
 
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post #38 of 459
Holy crap, I just tried to give this conversation an elegant end but you continued the 30 post derailment. We are in agreement, I was caught off guard by small changes in what you were saying before but no more. We have no further need to discuss this. Let blampars have his thread about his awesome game back. tongue.gif
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Windows 7 23" Acer Rosewill RK9000 w/MX cherry black switches PC Power and cooling 950w 
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Energy Take Classic 5.1 Home Theater Speaker Sy... Sony STRDH520 7.1 AV Receiver. 
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My Mangled Mess
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OCZ Vertex 4 Custom loop Windows 7 64-bit TBD 
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Das Professional S series Seasonic SS-1250XM NZXT H630 Saitek Cyborg M.M.O. 7 
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Razer Invicta Asus Essence STX II 7.1 w/daughterboard Thrustmaster Warthog Joystick CH Pro Flight Throttle (soon) 
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Saitek Pro Flight Pedals 
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Intel i5 2500k @4.7 stable Gigabyte Z68ap-d3 Sapphire Radeon HD 7970 @1250/1750 8gb Samsung low profile green series 
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500gb, WD caviar blue OCZ Vertex 4 128gb SSD 24x dvdrw XSPC RASA RX360 kit 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 23" Acer Rosewill RK9000 w/MX cherry black switches PC Power and cooling 950w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
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post #39 of 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Holy crap, I just tried to give this conversation an elegant end but you continued the 30 post derailment. We are in agreement, I was caught off guard by small changes in what you were saying before but no more. We have no further need to discuss this. Let blampars have his thread about his awesome game back. tongue.gif

Haha, I was thinking the same thing, I do get off on tangents some times, apologies blampars.

Hey I did have a question about the pledge levels, does it work like the ones for Project CARS do? Like say I bought the $125 but then decided to do the $250 package, do I just pay the $125 difference? I would assume it is, but I can't find where it says one way or another, unless I'm blind
 
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Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Corsair Neutron 256gb SSD Seagate Barracude 3tb Seagate Barracuda 3tb LG 12x Blu-Ray Drive 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Corsair H100i Windows 8 Pro 64-bit Crossover Black Tune 2735 AMG 27 inch 2560x1440... LG 22EA53 21.5in 1080p IPS panel 
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Samsung Syncmaster 216BW 21.6inch 1680x1050 LCD... Ducky DK 1008-C OCN Edition w/MX Blue Switches Cooler Master Silent Pro 1000w Corsair Vengeance C70 Arctic White 
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Logitech G600 Razer Vespula Logitech X-140 2.0 Speakers Logitech G930 Wireless 7.1 Surround Headset 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Core 2 Duo P8700 2.53Ghz Geforce GTX 260M 1GB 6GB DDR2 500gb and 160gb 
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Intel Core i7-4770K @ 4.3GHz ASUS Maximus VI GENE Galaxy Geforce GTX 780 Hall of Fame 1188/1652(6... G.Skill Ripjaws X series 16gb ddr3 2400 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Corsair Neutron 256gb SSD Seagate Barracude 3tb Seagate Barracuda 3tb LG 12x Blu-Ray Drive 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Corsair H100i Windows 8 Pro 64-bit Crossover Black Tune 2735 AMG 27 inch 2560x1440... LG 22EA53 21.5in 1080p IPS panel 
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Samsung Syncmaster 216BW 21.6inch 1680x1050 LCD... Ducky DK 1008-C OCN Edition w/MX Blue Switches Cooler Master Silent Pro 1000w Corsair Vengeance C70 Arctic White 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Logitech G600 Razer Vespula Logitech X-140 2.0 Speakers Logitech G930 Wireless 7.1 Surround Headset 
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post #40 of 459
Wow, I just read all that... and then a friendly ending. Props gents.

OT: I loved Freelancer most, and well, was disappointed the last time I was excited for a space sim... Darkstar One. I do want to mention I think the great fall of space sims was developers trying their hands at console-esque gameplay. Any time you try and mimic something as complex and exact as a space ship (IE: number of controllable axis) with a controller... Well something is lost in the translation. I am more excited than I have been for awhile, and I can't wait for this to go to alpha/beta... I just have a hard time not having a playable alpha for a year.
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