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Razer Deathadder 4G - Page 12

post #111 of 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by MONVMENTVM View Post

To eliminate these issues there'd be 2 ways to reshape the DA:
a.) Make the right side at the front and the button itself a few millimeters narrower. That way people could continue using the mouse with the ring finger on it's side but without that (excess) rotation issues.
b.) Make the right MB a little wider but ditch that bulge and shape it a little convex with a downward slope. That way it would be possible to keep the ring finger next to the middle finger on the right MB and therefore also eliminating the rotation issues.

Nice explanation overall. You opened my eyes.

Another simple way to overcome this rotation issue is simply to add an axis calibration option.
I know there's such a thing because my Trackman Marble can be calibrated to have the X axis in the angle you decide to place the trackball, extremely useful if you want to use the ball with your thumb or do weird grips (trackballs are weird so weird is allowed).
If they can place the same sensor within rotations of 90 degrees on different mice, this calibration option should be at least achievable by firmware.

It blows my mind that they're not doing this already, I mean, It would make AMAZING marketing material to add such a feature (within the explanation of the fully customizable grip with axis rotation for the ultimate gaming comfort kickass performance frags!)
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Ztylo
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post #112 of 565
I have said what MONVMENTVM has shown like 4 times before on this forum. But people want to argue that I don't know how to hold a mouse and link me to some stupid tutorial or photo.

People need to look at how a mouse dictates your grip and how the sensor is angled with such a grip. It is so obvious to a competent human when they are in game.

Grab any mouse you have, turn it upside down when it is in your hand, look at the sensor (unplug the mouse first) to see the alignment, now align the sensor and see how the mouse now fits in your hand. Is it as comfortable now? Do you have fatigue issues when playing hours at a time with the grip that has the sensor aligned? You don't play better when you hold it in the most comfortable manner if the sensor is not aligned that is for sure.
Edited by popups - 11/8/12 at 6:38pm
post #113 of 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by duox View Post

I certainly disagree with the thumb placement in that photo , theres rarely a universalscience on how to hold things, you should see how unnaturally I hold a gold club or tennis racket but it works. I rest my thumb under the side buttons and my palm is comfortablly guiding the mouse still not a claw grip.
A golf club or tennis racket are simple designs though. The DeathAdder is an ergonomically designed mouse that was designed for a specific way of holding it.

It's clearly not intended to be held in such a way that your wrist is parallel to the desk:
HFkbt.jpg

This is why there are left and right-handed versions of the DeathAdder.
A symmetrical ambidextrous mouse would be more comparable to something like the golf club or tennis racket in your example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by resis View Post

When I used the Deathadder, I had the thumb like in the picture with the red X. I activated the back button with the thumbs knuckle by moving the thumb up and the front button with the thumb tip. That way I had not to bend the thumb and use the tip for both buttons, means less movement, faster response.
My thumb is resting on both buttons there. There's no movement to press either button.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MONVMENTVM View Post

You guys seem not to understand what I meant before. Yes I know the Deathadder isn't designed for the ring finger to rest on the right MB. But that in combination with the wider front makes the mouse rotate counter-clock wise inside your hand...
This happens when you have your wrist parallel to the desk with the DeathAdder shape, rather than at a 10-15° angle.

On the left is holding the DeathAdder "correctly" with my wrist at the angle the mouse is designed for, on the right is holding it with my thumb below the side buttons, wrist parallel to the desk:
7WqhH.jpg
Note how much more relaxed my fingers are on the left. (weird colors due to the lighting in here)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MONVMENTVM View Post

In the following image you can see how my index finger would rather rest naturally (without forcing it away from the middle finger). Now during usage my index finger never rests on the mousewheel as you can see here (as I actively keep it away of course) but I find myself often touching the side of the wheel. So not a BIG issue but after a while forcing the index finger out gets it tired a little, which is enough to show that the design isn't perfectly thought through.
This is much more like the position your fingers are put into when you have your wrist at an angle on the DeathAdder, except they are curved around the shell, rather than held out straight.

You're holding the DeathAdder as if it were an ambidextrous mouse (like the Lachesis) not an ergonomic one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by popups View Post

I know that the mouse is designed for the middle finger on mouse 2. But I never had issues with other mice that also "intend" to have that placement. The Zowie is very similar and I have no real issues with that mouse with the same grip.
It is funny that people say I hold a mouse wrong. I hold a mouse the most natural way for my hand size. I relax my hand and place it on a mouse. I don't allow my hands to touch the mouse pad. I try to use my palm to lift the mouse by bringing the thumb and small finger toward one another. Another reason I place my middle finger on the scroll wheel is because I use it just as much or if not more than I do mouse 2. I use mwheeldown as jump and mouse 3 as voice communications. Since scroll wheel is always busy I need to use the ring finger to take the position of mouse 2.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to have three fingers on the top of the mouse, but when I do that, I find that my hand position moves forward, and I am starting to grip the mouse when moving it, rather than just resting my hand on the mouse. As you say you lift the mouse a lot (I don't lift at all really) which tells me that you are definitely gripping the mouse, rather than resting on it.

I can't be gripping a mouse when using it all day, because it causes me serious RSI pain, which was a problem for me with the Roccat Savu as that requires you to grip it, due to its narrow design.

I often do end up with three fingers on the mouse when using it in Windows, but when I'm gaming, I'm moving the mouse around a lot more, and at faster speeds, which means I grip it more tightly with my little finger which causes pain after a short period of time.

It's still easy to hold the mouse with your wrist at an angle and your thumb on the buttons with three fingers on top, but if you're lifting the mouse a lot, I can see why you wouldn't want to keep your thumb there. The DeathAdder shape doesn't seem to have been designed with that style of gameplay in mind, which would also explain the weight, and high lift-off distance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methoxetamine View Post

Maybe because my hands are too large? I can palm a G400 just fine but not a Deathadder as it's not long enough.
I think it depends how you position your hand on the arch. They're basically the same length, but the G400 has a much flatter profile than the DeathAdder:
udyPC.jpg

I feel bad for making the "you're holding it wrong" argument, but the mouse is clearly not designed to be held with your wrist parallel to the desk, unlike the G400 which has a much shallower angle and flatter profile.

It's too bad they don't offer an ambidextrous mouse with the DeathAdder sensor in it, because it seems like that's what most of you actually want. (whether you realize it or not)
Edited by NotAgain - 11/8/12 at 7:21pm
post #114 of 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by popups View Post

I know that the mouse is designed for the middle finger on mouse 2. But I never had issues with other mice that also "intend" to have that placement. The Zowie is very similar and I have no real issues with that mouse with the same grip.
It is funny that people say I hold a mouse wrong. I hold a mouse the most natural way for my hand size. I relax my hand and place it on a mouse. I don't allow my hands to touch the mouse pad. I try to use my palm to lift the mouse by bringing the thumb and small finger toward one another. Another reason I place my middle finger on the scroll wheel is because I use it just as much or if not more than I do mouse 2. I use mwheeldown as jump and mouse 3 as voice communications. Since scroll wheel is always busy I need to use the ring finger to take the position of mouse 2.
An example would be when AWPing I need to use mouse 1 and 2 just to use the AWP. I still need to jump and talk to the team when I am using the keyboard for player movement. Since you use walk (for me that is space bar) all the time, you only have one finger left to crouch (I use shift), as WASD is for your movement.
I place my thumb right under the side buttons because I do not want to accidentally actuate the buttons. If you relax your hand that is where it goes anyway. With my sensitivity requiring me to do two swipes on a 16 1/2" mouse pad to do a 180, I lift the mouse a lot. So placing my thumb on the side buttons is a silly thing to do.
So that would explain my "wrong" hand placement purely on efficiency within game. Now onto the other reason I know the DeathAdder is shaped wrong; that would be just as the very smart guy [MONVMENTVM] has shown. The DeathAdder forces you to hold it wrong regardless of grip style as it places the sensor off axis. It is an uphill battle with the DeathAdder's shape.
I could give advice to Razer on how to improve their mouse shape but why would I give that away for free. It isn't hard to figure out anyway.

Honestly, the problem is not with the Deathadder but with your button setup. Or rather with the Deathadder not being meant for such a setup. I hold my DA like NotAgain shows and it is a) comfortable and b) perfectly aligned with my hand. I have my thumb below the side buttons though, as I play lowsens and have to lift it a lot.

Using middle finger for mwheel and ring finger for m2 just doesn't work with the DA.

Honestly, to me the shape of the DA is one of the most comfortable of all mice, maybe because I'm so used to it. But I also liked the G400 and G500 shape wise. The best mouse in terms of shape is still the Mionix NAOS though. If only it had a better sensor.
Edited by Ino. - 11/8/12 at 10:55pm
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post #115 of 565
@NotAgain & Ino.

With my FPS buttons layout aside, as it doesn't really matter.

Have you guys went into a FPS game and did multiple 360s with large swipes to see how well your grip aligns the sensor? If I hold it just like you guys say to the sensor is not perfectly aligned. This makes the crosshair move diagonally.

When you are in a game straighten your wrist, don't allow it to go left or right, then start from the left end of your mouse pad and calmly move to the right. Do this with your eyes closed, just focus on not canting your wrist and keeping your hand movement constant. Keep resetting and swiping for about 6 or more times. After you're done look at your screen and see if your crosshair has moved down from its original position. If you kept your wrist straight it is very likely your crosshair is resting below its starting point.

Competitive FPS players tend to have low sensitivities. My highest sensitivity requires 25" to do a 360. That bing said, the weight and lack of grip (users with dry hands) of this mouse, the style of grip you suggest is not going to allow the player to perform their best. The majority of "professional" gamers that I have talked to that use or used the DeathAdder have told me they don't like the shape. They rather switch, or have already done so, to another mouse.

Maybe Glockateer can comment about the DeathAdder's shape compared to the beta sample of BST's mouse if he has a DeathAdder. He plays in a competitive FPS league. Would he rather use a DeathAdder or the shell BST is using?
post #116 of 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by popups View Post

@NotAgain & Ino.
With my FPS buttons layout aside, as it doesn't really matter.
Have you guys went into a FPS game and did multiple 360s with large swipes to see how well your grip aligns the sensor? If I hold it just like you guys say to the sensor is not perfectly aligned. This makes the crosshair move diagonally.
When you are in a game straighten your wrist, don't allow it to go left or right, then start from the left end of your mouse pad and calmly move to the right. Do this with your eyes closed, just focus on not canting your wrist and keeping your hand movement constant. Keep resetting and swiping for about 6 or more times. After you're done look at your screen and see if your crosshair has moved down from its original position. If you kept your wrist straight it is very likely your crosshair is resting below its starting point.
Competitive FPS players tend to have low sensitivities. My highest sensitivity requires 25" to do a 360. That bing said, the weight and lack of grip (users with dry hands) of this mouse, the style of grip you suggest is not going to allow the player to perform their best. The majority of "professional" gamers that I have talked to that use or used the DeathAdder have told me they don't like the shape. They rather switch, or have already done so, to another mouse.
Maybe Glockateer can comment about the DeathAdder's shape compared to the beta sample of BST's mouse if he has a DeathAdder. He plays in a competitive FPS league. Would he rather use a DeathAdder or the shell BST is using?

Well, I played competitively with the Deathadder in TF2. And I know some of the top guys were using the DA too. I use it in BF3 as well, and although we play in Clanbase Cups and Ladders you really can't call BF3 a competitive FPS.

But coming back to your point: The DA for me goes as straight as I can do with any of my other mice (Abyssus, Kana, G400, G500, Mionix NAOS 5000) as I always have to move my wrist too for a full swipe (~60cm/360°). If I hold my lower arm and wrist aligned I'd always do an arc.

I'm not saying that the Deathadder is perfect for every hand/grip combination. But it is the most comfortable for me. And also the best performing. There is room for optimization though, as someone suggested a \ _ / shape like the Abyssus would be better to lift the mouse. But with the glossy sides I never had a problem with that.
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post #117 of 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by popups View Post

@NotAgain & Ino.

Maybe Glockateer can comment about the DeathAdder's shape compared to the beta sample of BST's mouse if he has a DeathAdder. He plays in a competitive FPS league. Would he rather use a DeathAdder or the shell BST is using?

I don't think he'll mind me answering, but he prefers smaller and particularly lighter mice due to his grip. I had my sample sent to him as I am very busy with other things.

This has nothing to do with which mouse shape is better or worse, thou subjectively, I too would also choose a mouse thats comfortable. It's common sense.
Edited by Skylit - 11/9/12 at 2:48am
post #118 of 565
Is that mouse even released that you guys talk too much? :\
post #119 of 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by popups View Post

@NotAgain & Ino.
With my FPS buttons layout aside, as it doesn't really matter.
Have you guys went into a FPS game and did multiple 360s with large swipes to see how well your grip aligns the sensor? If I hold it just like you guys say to the sensor is not perfectly aligned. This makes the crosshair move diagonally.
When you are in a game straighten your wrist, don't allow it to go left or right, then start from the left end of your mouse pad and calmly move to the right. Do this with your eyes closed, just focus on not canting your wrist and keeping your hand movement constant. Keep resetting and swiping for about 6 or more times. After you're done look at your screen and see if your crosshair has moved down from its original position. If you kept your wrist straight it is very likely your crosshair is resting below its starting point.
Competitive FPS players tend to have low sensitivities. My highest sensitivity requires 25" to do a 360. That bing said, the weight and lack of grip (users with dry hands) of this mouse, the style of grip you suggest is not going to allow the player to perform their best. The majority of "professional" gamers that I have talked to that use or used the DeathAdder have told me they don't like the shape. They rather switch, or have already done so, to another mouse.
Maybe Glockateer can comment about the DeathAdder's shape compared to the beta sample of BST's mouse if he has a DeathAdder. He plays in a competitive FPS league. Would he rather use a DeathAdder or the shell BST is using?


Do not let people tell you how to hold a mouse, all the pictures in the world cannot make a grip that makes you personally have signifigantly less control better.
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post #120 of 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by duox View Post

Do not let people tell you how to hold a mouse, all the pictures in the world cannot make a grip that makes you personally have signifigantly less control better.
I'm not condoning what he said, but the term learning can apply to crippling habits. I'll just leave it at that.
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