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[PS] Save our Science - Page 9

post #81 of 135
NASA = Good
War = Bad
If you don't like the state of your country VOTE!!!!!!!!! After doing some basic research on candidates.
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post #82 of 135
I love how people also believe that the US is fundamentally flat economically.

We are:

*Still the worlds reserve note
*Still manufacturing the big industrial vehicles, factories, and robotics, along with mechanics
*Still own large quantities of IP in internet services, merchandise, software, infrastructure and related technologies
*Still produce and export much of the worlds grains
*Still the strongest and most advanced military in the world
*Still reserve much of the worlds invested wealth in American holdings

and much more.

The US is far from sinking or deflating to a point where economic growth becomes impossible. We are the worlds leading thinkers, makers, and innovators. Still.

And thus more money should be spent in science, science education, research, and related grants, donations, awards, and scholarships. However in this country, more money is spent on campaign elections (nationally) than several combined departments of the government's budgets, over a ten-year-period. Which is absolutely ludicrous.
    
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post #83 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by GanjaSMK View Post

I love how people also believe that the US is fundamentally flat economically.
We are:
*Still the worlds reserve note
*Still manufacturing the big industrial vehicles, factories, and robotics, along with mechanics
*Still own large quantities of IP in internet services, merchandise, software, infrastructure and related technologies
*Still produce and export much of the worlds grains
*Still the strongest and most advanced military in the world
*Still reserve much of the worlds invested wealth in American holdings

1. Which is worth significantly less than a lot of other notes, including CAD somehow (really, how...). Also the only reason it's the reserve note is because of WW2.
2. So does much of Europe and Asia.
3. So do a lot of countries.
4. The EU produces more than twice as much, china almost twice as much, and India 33% more. source
5. Debatable. Most of the tech is massively out of date, and hasn't been replaced due to the US never fighting a symmetrical war.
6. Not since 2008. That's what caused the crash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

the rest of the world can fend for itself like it's done for centuries, WE need to get ourselves back on our feet first.

The rest of the world would like to "fend for itself", but the US doesn't seem to want that to happen. Remember, the country with the slogan "land of the free" and "home of democracy" promised to use its VETO power to over-rule Palestine's application to join the UN. Last I checked VETO does not have any part in democracy, and vetoing a struggling countries fight for Independence isn't exactly the best form of "Freedom".
Edited by doomlord52 - 10/15/12 at 11:56pm
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post #84 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Not paying back the debt means that countries lending money to us lose faith in our ability to pay back out debt at any time, and then money lent to us starts having increased interest amounts, which means it is even harder to repay, and you end up in a vicious cycle much worse than we're in now.

If central banks are nationalized, then government will no longer need to borrow money from other banks. Government can then "print" all the money it needs at zero interest.
Some or all government debts can either be voided or paid back (simply by "printing" new money).
Quote:
Printing a ton of extra money will devalue the currency and make inflation go crazy, effectively cancelling out all of the printing of extra money.
Treasury department and congress can monitor inflation/deflation and pay back (or void) debts slowly or quickly, in order to maintain a stable economy. Yes, "printing" money and overspending does cause inflation but we are currently in a deflationary economic environment which is being counteracted by massive government spending and loose central bank lending policies.
Quote:
Paying back the debt is realistic, the country has been in and out of debt many times in the last century, no reason to believe we cannot do it again
The US federal government has been in debt since 1837.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Publicly_Held_Federal_Debt_1790-2009.png

The great depression was (economically) ended not by less government spending, but by spending more!

Paying back $16 trillion in federal government debt would cause massive depletion of the money supply (deflation) and more bankruptcies. Bankruptcies and massive deflation would lead to much higher unemployment and increased poverty, which is what happened during the great depression.

If you still think all the national debt can be paid back (without "printing" money or without voiding some debts), watch this.
EAT THE RICH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=661pi6K-8WQ#t=136s
Edited by Partol - 10/16/12 at 3:40am
     
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post #85 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post


Look at the history. Why did the US go into Korea? Because they wanted to be allies with the Koreans? No. It was to prevent "the spread of communism" - because communism is "evil" and "must be stopped". Same goes with Vietnam. It's almost never logical. They go in when they're confident they can win, and ONLY go on when its profitable.

I would just like to point out that South korea is now a beacon of prosperity and freedom, truly one of the success stories of the cold war, and it was a UN effort, not an american war. The people of south korea probably thank their lucky stars every day that the UN stepped in and was able to ensure they stayed free during that war. They would have ended up like north korea without the intervention of the UN with people actually starving while ruled by a crazed dictator.

I wonder what vietnam would be like today if the united states had won that war. They could have been another high tech, prosperous and free people. Instead they're yet another degraded pit of repression and failure. Imagine if there was a vietnamese samsung. If the people of vietnam had a gdp of 30k. If young gamers from vietnam dominated some online game. Imagine if vietnam actually contributed to global prosperity the way south korea does.

Hate on america all you want, but your examples here don't really support your argument.
post #86 of 135
Won't bother to quote the persons that this is aimed at.

The discussion wether the military or NASA is the driving force behind the world is moot. Well actually it's stupid and to be fair, you're stupid if you take side in it.
First of all, NASA is a military spin off and until the end of the cold war most of it can be seen as one upmanship against Soviet with nifty doohikeys like trident missiles trickling down to armed forces.

But no thats not why you're stupid or why you should live in fear of squirrels (I Assume that your lack of scholarly education and or relevant reasoning is due to an upbringing confined to a neoshaministic cult's woodpalisade fortress.)
You're stupid because you actually believe that major inventions are the makings or dependent on one single organisation. sure the materialistic wiev on history is opposed by most anglosaxon mainstream writers in favor of the more, well again stupid idealistic wiev.
DARPA did not create the internet, nor did Gore, nor did CERN nor did Shannon or for that matter your cat. The internet as we know it today grew out of a multitude of technologies and it's safe to assume that if DARPA wouldn't have doneit, someone helse would have done their part.
The same goes for most NASA technologies.
The realissue is the mission, not the protagonist. It is in the mission that greatness is achieved, not by who does it.

It's sad to see cutbacks in any field of progress. The allocation of funds often makes little or no sense when it comes to progressive actions outside of war. Something which has been stated in this thread.
And it's even sadder that a threat is needed to fuel advancement at a cold war pace. But then again one cal always lie: "beware the freedom hating, childbeating, religious iconagraphy burning, Aliens.
 
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post #87 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by serp777 View Post

To be honest, without FTL, planetary exploration is pretty pointless. The United States needs more budget cuts to deal with it's debt. Robotic missions to other planets tell us about things like planetary composition, atmospheric composition, and various other useless facts. The fact that mars had water in the past, for example, won't help solve world hunger, global warming, or economic recession. The facts gained by these robotic missions barely contribute anything useful to science, compared to something like physics, genetics, or nanotechnology, which have all led to concrete advances that can actually benefit us.

The only thing stopping solving global hunger, supposed global warming is human greed - plain and simple.
I'm guessing you'd be the one saying "Columbus exploration is pretty pointless. Earth exploration is useless - we already know earth is the center of universe!!! We need to focus on how to make better clothes, swords, and carriages..." ? if we were few hundred years back...
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post #88 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huzzbutt View Post

Won't bother to quote the persons that this is aimed at.
The discussion wether the military or NASA is the driving force behind the world is moot. Well actually it's stupid and to be fair, you're stupid if you take side in it.
First of all, NASA is a military spin off and until the end of the cold war most of it can be seen as one upmanship against Soviet with nifty doohikeys like trident missiles trickling down to armed forces.
But no thats not why you're stupid or why you should live in fear of squirrels (I Assume that your lack of scholarly education and or relevant reasoning is due to an upbringing confined to a neoshaministic cult's woodpalisade fortress.)
You're stupid because you actually believe that major inventions are the makings or dependent on one single organisation. sure the materialistic wiev on history is opposed by most anglosaxon mainstream writers in favor of the more, well again stupid idealistic wiev.
DARPA did not create the internet, nor did Gore, nor did CERN nor did Shannon or for that matter your cat. The internet as we know it today grew out of a multitude of technologies and it's safe to assume that if DARPA wouldn't have doneit, someone helse would have done their part.
The same goes for most NASA technologies.
The realissue is the mission, not the protagonist. It is in the mission that greatness is achieved, not by who does it.
It's sad to see cutbacks in any field of progress. The allocation of funds often makes little or no sense when it comes to progressive actions outside of war. Something which has been stated in this thread.
And it's even sadder that a threat is needed to fuel advancement at a cold war pace. But then again one cal always lie: "beware the freedom hating, childbeating, religious iconagraphy burning, Aliens.

Seems someone didn't actually READ the posts that were made as I know this is directed at me and Darkpriest. If you'd actually taken the time to thoroughly read what we've posted, you'd see we're two sides of the same coin. He argues that we need military R&D (which I agree with) and never says it should be the only source, but he IS correct in saying that without the DoD backing the research and development, the 2 major technologies we have today wouldn't be here as we know them. In fact I even said in an earlier post that without the DoD, who's to say we wouldn't have gotten those techs on our own, albeit probably much later.

Go back and ACTUALLY read what I wrote and tell me again why I'm stupid. Or was raised in the woods. Not once do I take a side, in fact, in my second to last post I specifically state we need BOTH areas. Then go look at the list of technologies I posted, then expanded upon and come back and tell me that without NASA backing or input, that we'd have them as readily available as we do today.

Before opening your mouth and claiming other people's stupidity and lack of education, maybe you should actually READ what's being written.
 
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post #89 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Partol View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Not paying back the debt means that countries lending money to us lose faith in our ability to pay back out debt at any time, and then money lent to us starts having increased interest amounts, which means it is even harder to repay, and you end up in a vicious cycle much worse than we're in now.

If central banks are nationalized, then government will no longer need to borrow money from other banks. Government can then "print" all the money it needs at zero interest.
Some or all government debts can either be voided or paid back (simply by "printing" new money).
Quote:
Printing a ton of extra money will devalue the currency and make inflation go crazy, effectively cancelling out all of the printing of extra money.
Treasury department and congress can monitor inflation/deflation and pay back (or void) debts slowly or quickly, in order to maintain a stable economy. Yes, "printing" money and overspending does cause inflation but we are currently in a deflationary economic environment which is being counteracted by massive government spending and loose central bank lending policies.
Quote:
Paying back the debt is realistic, the country has been in and out of debt many times in the last century, no reason to believe we cannot do it again
The US federal government has been in debt since 1837.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Publicly_Held_Federal_Debt_1790-2009.png

The great depression was (economically) ended not by less government spending, but by spending more!

Paying back $16 trillion in federal government debt would cause massive depletion of the money supply (deflation) and more bankruptcies. Bankruptcies and massive deflation would lead to much higher unemployment and increased poverty, which is what happened during the great depression.

If you still think all the national debt can be paid back (without "printing" money or without voiding some debts), watch this.
EAT THE RICH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=661pi6K-8WQ#t=136s

Everything you're talking about acts as if the United States is in an economic bubble, and it's not, the U.S. economy is heavily dependent upon the economies of the world. We can't just print money to solve our problems and then adjust interest rates to compensate, that will do nothing for other counties trading with us. Printing more money devalues the U.S. dollar worldwide, which would affect everybody using them, how will changing a U.S. interest rate help everyone else? If we screw everyone else, it'll just come right back to us as they start to make it impossible to trade with them, or too expensive to do so. Paying off the debt will not lead to deflation, I'm not sure where you get this information. That's like saying I shouldn't pay off my credit card bills. Paying down the debt will give the U.S. better borrowing rates with other countries, which is nothing but a good thing. Cutting government spending isn't the only answer to the problem, we need to get the economy going again, and then once it's healthy we likely need to raise taxes so we can make up for the lack of income we've had for 5 years now. Again, like a credit card, we racked up debt over the last 5 years so we could keep things moving, and once we're back on our feet we're going to have to take some of our paycheck to pay back the debt, otherwise interest rates will rise.

The video you posted only seems to make the point that we spend a lot of money each year. Unfortunately it's using statistics from an economy that's in its largest recession in 80 years. You'd be surprised when an economy grows how quickly it can begin to make up ground. There's no way to win this argument though, we'll just have to wait 5 years and look back and see. I certainly hope, for everyone's sake though, that you're wrong.
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post #90 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Everything you're talking about acts as if the United States is in an economic bubble, and it's not, the U.S. economy is heavily dependent upon the economies of the world. We can't just print money to solve our problems and then adjust interest rates to compensate, that will do nothing for other counties trading with us. Printing more money devalues the U.S. dollar worldwide, which would affect everybody using them, how will changing a U.S. interest rate help everyone else? If we screw everyone else, it'll just come right back to us as they start to make it impossible to trade with them, or too expensive to do so. Paying off the debt will not lead to deflation, I'm not sure where you get this information. That's like saying I shouldn't pay off my credit card bills. Paying down the debt will give the U.S. better borrowing rates with other countries, which is nothing but a good thing. Cutting government spending isn't the only answer to the problem, we need to get the economy going again, and then once it's healthy we likely need to raise taxes so we can make up for the lack of income we've had for 5 years now. Again, like a credit card, we racked up debt over the last 5 years so we could keep things moving, and once we're back on our feet we're going to have to take some of our paycheck to pay back the debt, otherwise interest rates will rise.
The video you posted only seems to make the point that we spend a lot of money each year. Unfortunately it's using statistics from an economy that's in its largest recession in 80 years. You'd be surprised when an economy grows how quickly it can begin to make up ground. There's no way to win this argument though, we'll just have to wait 5 years and look back and see. I certainly hope, for everyone's sake though, that you're wrong.

That's not to mention that the reckless printing of money will cause other nations to not be confident in USD. If they aren't confident in USD then they will trade in another currency. This is already happening between Japan and China.

I disagree with raising taxes after the economy returns to normal. If I made a highly successful game today I would be taxed 46%. That is an insane percentage. That means if I made $10,500,000 I would only receive $5,700,000. The government would take $4,800,000 of my earned income. Why should I even bother when the only reason to make it anymore is my passion for gaming? If you raise taxes even higher you'll just kill off even more creativity and innovation. When you kill off the incentive for creativity and innovation you hurt the economy. After seeing the 46% figure I don't even know if I want to dedicate the time towards making an indie title.
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Deimos (G4.P)
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Arcturus (G4.S)
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