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[The Atlantic Wire] Twitter Censors Users for the First Time - Page 2  

post #11 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSocialHermit View Post

The actions that Twitter took are to follow the law in Germany, which I understand why they did it, but even if these people are spouting nothing but hateful and terrible things, they deserve just the same rights of free speech as the New Black Panther Party does and they are saying that white children need to be killed to get their message across. I don't like their ideals but I will not let people be censored for having views that are "distasteful" but don't think I would accept their actions of cruelty while idly sitting by. The murders and assaults should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law but the moment you begin censoring speech, the next subject that is deemed distasteful will be on the block and it could be your religion, political views, sexual preference or any number of things.

Having distasteful views is one thing, but when people in these groups start releasing thousands of videos of beheadings, murders, etc is when they take their views too far and should be removed from site. By saying they are neo-nazis, they are saying they agree with killing these people. Free speech requires that you are stating an opinion, as soon as you start threatening harm to people, it is no longer free speech.

By your logic, Neo-nazi should be allowed to come onto OCN and post their garbage in off topic threads with no consequences. No one is being arrested for stating their beliefs and that's all freedom of speech really protects against. It is up to twitter if they want that stuff on their site, and if I was in their shoes I wouldn't want it on my site.

It's the same reason why moderation exists on forums. Freedom of speech is abused by people who really don't understand what it is, you can state whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you can go into a church and scream "worship satan" and expect everyone to be fine with it. You would probably be removed from the building, and the same thing is happening here.

I could make a website right now, and I would get to choose what viewpoints are allowed and this would not violate freedom of speech at all. Extreme believers like this can host their own website if they really want to pull the "freedom of speech" card. No one's freedom of speech is being violated by twitter choosing which posts are allowed and which aren't. I generally disagree with any form of censorship when it comes to 99.9% of things, but I find this move perfectly acceptable.
Edited by Murlocke - 10/18/12 at 9:56pm
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post #12 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7heMy7h View Post

Well said.  The only way to protect freedom of speech is to defend it without exception.  If we start limiting it based on what we think is decent and acceptable, it no longer really exists.

circle gets the square
post #13 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murlocke View Post

Neo-Nazi's and similar groups should be banned from sites like that. These guys have outrageous beliefs and kill/torture people just because of their race. There are videos of what they do online, it's stuff that humans should not be capable of doing to other humans.
If I was in charge of twitter, i'd ban them from the site completely, not just one country. I'm also extremely anti-censorship, but there is a line.
Why? You want to follow racists and murders on twitter or let them promote this stuff? This is a very extreme case. There's a line where censoring becomes a good thing. Beliefs like this can get out of hand and terrible things can happen (hello, WW2..).


Totally disagree. And for the record WW2 did not happen because of nazis. It happened because of a major depression in europe. When people starve to death they tend to kill people or unite and find a common person or a group to blame. So don't pin any radical belief as a cause of something like WW2. Those of us that study and research history will tell you that's fundamentally a flawed viewpoint.

NOW, who is to draw the line on censorship. If I think that believing in AMD is terribly offensive does that mean they are not allowed to post on that anymore on twitter? What are the guidelines for the censorship. If I speak out against my govt? Against a website? against an individual? if its only against groups of people how many have to be offended before its hate speach? No sir. You agree with a fundamental principle that starts us down a path that we have been down before. I may not agree with nazis. I may hate them. But as has been said famously over and over again "the freedom of speech is not to protect polite speech it is to protect unpolite and unpopular speech" I will die for that freedom even if I fundamentally disagree with what is being said you and everyone else has the right to say it.

If you are ok with censorship I suggest you move somewhere that its actively practiced and allow those of us in the liberated world to continue to protect it.


I dont like this one bit.
 
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post #14 of 70
Thread Starter 
Large quote (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murlocke View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSocialHermit View Post

The actions that Twitter took are to follow the law in Germany, which I understand why they did it, but even if these people are spouting nothing but hateful and terrible things, they deserve just the same rights of free speech as the New Black Panther Party does and they are saying that white children need to be killed to get their message across. I don't like their ideals but I will not let people be censored for having views that are "distasteful" but don't think I would accept their actions of cruelty while idly sitting by. The murders and assaults should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law but the moment you begin censoring speech, the next subject that is deemed distasteful will be on the block and it could be your religion, political views, sexual preference or any number of things.

Having distasteful views is one thing, but when people in these groups start releasing thousands of videos of beheadings, murders, etc is when they take their views too far and should be removed from site. By saying they are neo-nazis, they are saying they agree with killing these people. Free speech requires that you are stating an opinion, as soon as you start threatening harm to people, it is no longer free speech.

By your logic, Neo-nazi should be allowed to come onto OCN and post their garbage in off topic threads with no consequences. No one is being arrested for stating their beliefs and that's all freedom of speech really protects against. It is up to twitter if they want that stuff on their site, and if I was in their shoes I wouldn't want it on my site.

It's the same reason why moderation exists on forums. Freedom of speech is abused by people who really don't understand what it is, you can state whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you can go into a church and scream "worship satan" and expect everyone to be fine with it. You would probably be removed from the building, and the same thing is happening here.

I could make a website right now, and I would get to choose what viewpoints are allowed and this would not violate freedom of speech at all. Extreme believers like this can host their own website if they really want to pull the "freedom of speech" card. No one's freedom of speech is being violated by twitter choosing which posts are allowed and which aren't. I generally disagree with any form of censorship when it comes to 99.9% of things, but I find this move perfectly acceptable.
This.
 
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post #15 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpriest667 View Post

Totally disagree. And for the record WW2 did not happen because of nazis. It happened because of a major depression in europe. When people starve to death they tend to kill people or unite and find a common person or a group to blame. So don't pin any radical belief as a cause of something like WW2. Those of us that study and research history will tell you that's fundamentally a flawed viewpoint.

lol..

I never said it's what caused WW2, I was talking about the things that went on during WW2. I know my history well enough to know racism wasn't the cause of WW2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpriest667 View Post

NOW, who is to draw the line on censorship. If I think that believing in AMD is terribly offensive does that mean they are not allowed to post on that anymore on twitter? What are the guidelines for the censorship. If I speak out against my govt? Against a website? against an individual? if its only against groups of people how many have to be offended before its hate speach?

It is up to the site you are posting on... as it should be.

Your freedom of speech does not allow you to state anything you want, anywhere you want, with no consequences. All it states is that you can't be arrested for stating your beliefs. People can still ban you from events, groups, websites, etc for extreme viewpoints and opinions. This is not a violation of anyone's freedom of speech. They are more than welcome to go to a neo-nazi site and post there, or make their own.
Edited by Murlocke - 10/18/12 at 10:09pm
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post #16 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murlocke View Post

lol..
I never said it's what caused WW2, I was talking about the things that went on during WW2. I know my history well enough to know racism wasn't the cause of WW2.
It is up to the site you are posting on...
Your freedom of speech does not allow you to state anything you want, anywhere you want, with no consequences. All it states is that you can't be arrested for stating your beliefs, people can still ban you from events, groups, websites, etc for extreme viewpoints. This is not a violation of anyone's freedom of speech.


good then you also know that we (the allies) did some pretty terrible things in the name of "necessity" so you have to either take one side of the argument or the other. There is no middle ground when you talk about censorship. There just isn't. In a pluralist, democratic, enlightened society you cannot stomp out a viewpoint simply because you believe it to be dangerous or you don't agree with it. I'm sorry, you can't. Who is to say who is dangerous or hateful. Plenty of hateful groups that aren't neonazis have twitter accounts (black panthers, radical protestor groups) and I bet they arent being censored. It always starts with one. Its always in the name of safety or, god forbid, the freaking children.
 
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post #17 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpriest667 View Post

good then you also know that we (the allies) did some pretty terrible things in the name of "necessity" so you have to either take one side of the argument or the other. There is no middle ground when you talk about censorship. There just isn't. In a pluralist, democratic, enlightened society you cannot stomp out a viewpoint simply because you believe it to be dangerous or you don't agree with it. I'm sorry, you can't. Who is to say who is dangerous or hateful. Plenty of hateful groups that aren't neonazis have twitter accounts (black panthers, radical protestor groups) and I bet they arent being censored. It always starts with one. Its always in the name of safety or, god forbid, the freaking children.

If I host a website, I most definitely can stomp out any viewpoint I don't agree with on my website. You may not agree with it, but that's reality and it's how pretty much everything in the world is managed to a degree.

You can't go to most websites and state extreme beliefs and not expect to be banned. Including OCN.
You can't go to work and state extreme beliefs and not expect to be fired.
You can't walk up to the president of the united states and say "In my opinion, you should be murdered" and expect to walk away.

Too many people do not understand what freedom of speech protects you from. You can't just throw "in my opinion" in front of something and expect to play the freedom of speech card, or state your beliefs anywhere you want.

Would you be perfectly fine with pedophiles posting on OCN about how attractive children are and mods allowing it? It's freedom of speech, they can't be arrested for stating it, but that doesn't mean it makes the website a nice place. By banning them, you are censoring them from ONE site that doesn't allow that content. They are still free to go find a site that does allow those viewpoints. What about spammers? Their posts being removed is a form of censorship too.

Anyways, done debating this because I don't think we'll ever share opinions on this matter. I agree 99.9% of censorship is bad, but this is a case of the other .1%.
Edited by Murlocke - 10/18/12 at 10:29pm
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post #18 of 70
I have noticed a disturbing trend lately that people are very misinformed about how free speech works, particularly in the U.S. Somehow people got the idea that free speech means you can say whatever you want without having to worry about any consequences for what you say. That is not correct. The first amendment grants you free speech without repercussions from the GOVERNMENT only. However, the private sector and private citizens can react anyway they want as long as it doesn't violate federal law.

If a private media site doesn’t like what you’re saying they have every right to edit/remove that content. If you company doesn’t like what you’re saying on your Facebook page they have every right to fire you. Or, like the owner of Chic fil A’s, if you say you don’t like gay people, other citizens have the right to not patronize your restaurant. Just because the government can’t get involved in things like this doesn’t mean you can go around babbling garbage without repercussions.

In this case, I believe that Twitter made the right call. If you’re going to do business in another sovereign country, you should respect the laws of said county. While I’m a big fan of the government not suppressing speech, I can understand what a sensitive issue this is for Germany as I believe twitter does also.
    
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post #19 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murlocke View Post

If I host a website, I most definitely can stomp out any viewpoint I don't agree with on my website. You may not agree with it, but that's reality and it's how pretty much everything in the world is managed to a degree.
You can't go to most websites and state extreme beliefs and not expect to be banned. Including OCN.
You can't go to work and state extreme beliefs and not expect to be fired.
You can't walk up to the president of the united states and say "In my opinion, you should be murdered" and expect to walk away.
Too many people do not understand what freedom of speech protects you from. You can't just throw "in my opinion" in front of something and expect to play the freedom of speech card, or state your beliefs anywhere you want.
Would you be perfectly fine with pedophiles posting on OCN about how attractive children are and mods allowing it? It's freedom of speech, they can't be arrested for stating it, but that doesn't mean it makes the website a nice place. By banning them, you are censoring them from ONE site that doesn't allow that content. They are still free to go find a site that does allow those viewpoints. What about spammers? Their posts being removed is a form of censorship too.
Anyways, done debating this because I don't think we'll ever share opinions on this matter. I agree 99.9% of censorship is bad, but this is a case of the other .1%.

Completely agree with you... Private citizens/companies have the right to ban/censor/refuse service to anyone they so please for any reason they can come up with, or without reason... The part that worries me about the subject at hand is the partial quote from below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSocialHermit View Post

The actions that Twitter took are to follow the law in Germany

To be honest; I haven't even bothered doing any reading on the subject (hell; I don't even have a twitter account)... But if this was something that Twitter did at the behest of the German government; who is to say that the same government decides to ask Twitter to ban accounts of members of the opposing party, or accounts of activists that voice their disagreements with the government via Twitter? The thing is that today; it was a "righteous" ban, but we all know that the moment we give up any sort of liberty to the government; we're never going to get that back... And please tell me if you know of a government agency that, when given a yard, did not try to take the whole football field... If they think they can get away with it; they will try to ban stuff that doesn't need banning... You know it; I know it; they know it.
Edited by xXSebaSXx - 10/18/12 at 10:45pm
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I like seeing how stupid some people in the human race are. We are able to code/program machines and programs that can allow us with the help of engineers go to space, fix people that have been injured with medical equipment and etc, BUT then I remember there are people in the world that think because someone is a different race/colour/height/weight and etc should be bullied/killed because of it.

There is no hope in the human race, there is no control over people that do that ^ and there should be. They do not deserve to walk this earth.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [The Atlantic Wire] Twitter Censors Users for the First Time