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[TOI]New technology can produce 'petrol from air' - Page 7

post #61 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying hydrogen can't be used as a fuel for cars. Just that is does have some serious drawbacks. Out of curiosity. How much space do thous LPD taxis have? Do they have the LPD tank in the trunk or what? I'm also curious about how they refuel? Do they have like LPG pumps in the Taxi stations or something?
You are right about Hydrogen being relatively expensive compared to other fuels but that's more of an lack of demand issue then anything else.

The other thing is like these synthesized hydrocarbons, hydrogen would need to be synthesized, and that takes energy as well. Hydrogen fuel cells might be more efficient than combustion engines, so the energy loss due to conversion might not be as great. But again, this still means overhauling the entire transportation infrastructure and replacing all the cars, which is very expensive and difficult to do.

There are methods of making a hydrogen fuel tank for a car, and in fact cars running on hydrogen already exist in very limited quantities. The tank needs to be a lot thicker and heavier (due to explosion hazards), and specialized nozzles need to be used for fueling. The range also isn't as good. While the energy/volume ratio of compressed hydrogen is much better than that of batteries, it still doesn't touch gasoline.

Ultimately, whatever fuel we choose to drive our cars, they will only be energy storage. The fuel will need to be created from energy from a large, renewable source, like dams, windmills, solar panels, etc.
Edited by Tsumi - 10/23/12 at 2:48am
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post #62 of 126
we cut trees (wich are air producer.then we create oil with air .wow .what a brilliant idea to kill earth citizen fast
post #63 of 126
liquid natural gas is the futur.
post #64 of 126
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryboto View Post

Didn't a US company announce an enzyme or engineered bacteria that can consume CO2 and produce gasoline? This sounds less efficient a process in terms of energy consumed.

This is the company: http://www.jouleunlimited.com/
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post #65 of 126
Conservation of energy anyone?
post #66 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamTheJarvis View Post

Conservation of energy anyone?
Read the thread before making such silly comments. As others have stated, the achievement is to transform an undense energy source such as wind, solar or nuclear into a power dense energy source such as gasoline.

People talk about the hydrogen economy, but if efficient enough, this could be a real game changer. However, I think biofuels will ultimately play out to be the way of the future.
post #67 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying hydrogen can't be used as a fuel for cars. Just that is does have some serious drawbacks. Out of curiosity. How much space do thous LPD taxis have? Do they have the LPD tank in the trunk or what? I'm also curious about how they refuel? Do they have like LPG pumps in the Taxi stations or something?
You are right about Hydrogen being relatively expensive compared to other fuels but that's more of an lack of demand issue then anything else.
it's not just lack of demand - it's more that it's highly impractical. hydrogen is flammable in concentrations between 4% and 75% by volume, which basically means ANY point where there is a leak you have an explosion hazard. Gasoline is much, much safer. it has a lower energy density than gasoline, so assuming you could move it in liquid form in a standard tanker truck, you'd need way, way more. gasoline has 34MJoules per liter, and 700bar H2 has 5.6MJoules per liter, so you'd need to move six times the volume of fuel, and your gas tank that used to get you a 300 mile range would get you 50 miles. - all ignoring the problems with actually storing the fuel.

here's some real research done by others:
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/hibbs1/
for liquid H2, it takes a "15 gallon hydrogen tank to carry the energy equivalent of 4 gallons of gasoline." or 3.75x the volume per unit energy. Not to mention that a tank capable of holding liquid H2 costs a LOT more (over $100k) than a hunk of stamped steel ($200ish) holding gasoline.
Edited by u3b3rg33k - 10/23/12 at 11:39am
 
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post #68 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by u3b3rg33k View Post

it's not just lack of demand - it's more that it's highly impractical. hydrogen is flammable in concentrations between 4% and 75% by volume, which basically means ANY point where there is a leak you have an explosion hazard. Gasoline is much, much safer. it has a lower energy density than gasoline, so assuming you could move it in liquid form in a standard tanker truck, you'd need way, way more. gasoline has 34MJoules per liter, and 700bar H2 has 5.6MJoules per liter, so you'd need to move six times the volume of fuel, and your gas tank that used to get you a 300 mile range would get you 50 miles. - all ignoring the problems with actually storing the fuel.
here's some real research done by others:
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/hibbs1/
for liquid H2, it takes a "15 gallon hydrogen tank to carry the energy equivalent of 4 gallons of gasoline." or 3.75x the volume per unit energy. Not to mention that a tank capable of holding liquid H2 costs a LOT more (over $100k) than a hunk of stamped steel ($200ish) holding gasoline.

Woah...woah there. You first say flammable, then claim explosive. It's not quite true. Gas is so volatile that if you had a leak, you could have a huge fireball surrounding your gas tank. Experiments showing hydrogen leaks from a fuel tank on board a car show a controlled flame, no explosion, no fireball.

http://policy.rutgers.edu/ceeep/hydrogen/basics/safety.php

Hydrogen doesn't necessarily NEED to be transported. Take, for example, my company. We reform natural gas on site and store it in tanks that can be used to refuel vehicles. We've sold these for forklift operations at warehouses for use with our fuel cell batteries. No need to transport the H2, it's right there. In the future we'll harness electrolysis of water when it becomes more efficient than natural gas reforming. At the moment, the total efficiency of the conversion+use of hydrogen is greater than if one were to simply use fossil fuels to fuel the forklift trucks and/or vehicles.

Everything about H2 fuel cells is expensive, now. Mostly because none of it is commercially manufactured. Everything is done in batches, by hand. Wait until 2015, Toyota, GM and others have committed to that year for commercial availability of H2 vehicles.

edit- also, we have vehicle designs with a possible 400 mile range.
Edited by ryboto - 10/23/12 at 4:34pm
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post #69 of 126
Problem is, electricity is already more expensive per joule than petrol is.
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post #70 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryboto View Post

Woah...woah there. You first say flammable, then claim explosive. It's not quite true. Gas is so volatile that if you had a leak, you could have a huge fireball surrounding your gas tank. Experiments showing hydrogen leaks from a fuel tank on board a car show a controlled flame, no explosion, no fireball.

http://policy.rutgers.edu/ceeep/hydrogen/basics/safety.php
Hydrogen doesn't necessarily NEED to be transported. Take, for example, my company. We reform natural gas on site and store it in tanks that can be used to refuel vehicles. We've sold these for forklift operations at warehouses for use with our fuel cell batteries. No need to transport the H2, it's right there. In the future we'll harness electrolysis of water when it becomes more efficient than natural gas reforming. At the moment, the total efficiency of the conversion+use of hydrogen is greater than if one were to simply use fossil fuels to fuel the forklift trucks and/or vehicles.
Everything about H2 fuel cells is expensive, now. Mostly because none of it is commercially manufactured. Everything is done in batches, by hand. Wait until 2015, Toyota, GM and others have committed to that year for commercial availability of H2 vehicles.

Still doesn't answer the infrastructure overhaul costs and the significantly lower energy/volume ratio.
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