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post #3781 of 67227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solders18 View Post

I feel like this issue is one of those instant controversy topics like abortion or gay marriage, mainly because prime has been the golden standard for so many years. i think that we are boiling down that there are compatibility issues except for the diehard primes that think it is the perfect coding for everything despite a list of bug fixes
No, I'm sorry, but I think you're missing the point.

Even if the stability problems were in this brand-new stability testing program "XYZ", and even if "XYZ" has no track record, the results should still be consistent from machine to machine.

Yeah, it's possible for software to be broken in such a way that the results will be different from run-to-run. But you're straining credulity to claim that on some systems it will run predictably for run after run, hour after hour, AND that failures on some other system are caused by a bug and not in the differences between the systems.
Edited by rvaughn - 11/20/12 at 9:44am
post #3782 of 67227
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Ok, I'm glad that's resolved, but don't we have a Prime95 27.7 that was hard to find? Does that have the fix? And, if anyone has it, could they link it please.

27.7 has been out for ages. I've been on 27.7 build 2 since early this year. Google it and find hundreds of links

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Awww, you're one of those people who rates Prime higher then AMD's own testing and binning, aren't you? People like you are so cute, I wish we could put you next to the puppies in the window of pet stores. blushsmiley.gif
In all seriousness, If you had any idea what those CPUs have to go through to be considered good enough to sell, you'd crap yourself. AMD, intel, and nvidia are not in the business of selling things that will just be RMAd or don't work. Plus this is one of the higher end parts, and if something didn't work AMD could lop off a couple cores that were being problematic and sell it as a lower part, free of charge.
Not to mention those same tests were done across multiple Giga and Asus boards, but if you think this is all happening on just one combination of hardware, be my guest and list it.
I also love how you completely ignore Red's argument and just post whatever was on your mind. You'll fit in just fine here.

You're condescending and then base your argument on things neither you nor anyone on this forum knows anything about - AMDs binning process. rolleyes.gif You cite occam's razor, but you're the one making ridiculously convoluted arguments.
Edited by Tempey - 11/20/12 at 9:47am
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post #3783 of 67227
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Awww, you're one of those people who rates Prime higher then AMD's own testing and binning, aren't you? People like you are so cute, I wish we could put you next to the puppies in the window of pet stores. blushsmiley.gif
In all seriousness, If you had any idea what those CPUs have to go through to be considered good enough to sell, you'd crap yourself. AMD, intel, and nvidia are not in the business of selling things that will just be RMAd or don't work. Not to mention this is one of the higher end parts, and if something didn't work AMD could lop off a couple cores that were being problematic and sell it as a lower part, free of charge.
Not to mention those same tests were done across multiple Giga and Asus boards, but if you think this is all happening on just one combination of hardware, be my guest and list it.
I also love how you completely ignore Red's argument and just post whatever was on your mind. You'll fit in just fine here.

Well CK got their first and I don't think I could have said it any better than he did. You in no way answered my question. And if by your own logic, ( P95 is just a set of math problems) then you are saying that every single other load/stress test, and the extensive and intense testing of the binning process would miss "instabilities?'
Thanks for the response, but you really did not address anything in my question which was -what of all of the bug fixes and revisions? If a program is being "bug fixed" and revised for stable support for only Intel, how can you be so sure that it's not an 'unfixed bug' that is the problem here.

(From the P95 Change logs)
27.1 alpha December 5, 2011[34] Intel AVX support (32 bit only)
27.2 alpha December 19, 2011[35] Includes all FFT lengths; first Linux/MPrime test version
27.3 beta February 16, 2012[36] 64 bit AVX support
27.4 beta March 9, 2012[37]
27.6 beta April 24, 2012[38] Bug fixes; (v27.5 was skipped;[39] the underlying math libraries went through a revision, but Prime95 was not modified.)
27.7 beta May 3, 2012[40] More bug fixes
27.7 May 15, 2012 Stable AVX support (for Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge CPUs, Core i3/i5/i7-2xxx and 3xxx models)

if it's simply a mathematical equation being presented , then what are all of these "bug fixes?' or FLAWS in the program being fixed? and if it is just a mathematical equation being presented, then why is the program being altered to to fix the operation on one architecture (note 27.7 'stable' AVX support for sandy bridge and ivy bridge CPU's) what then was the purpose of that revision and why was it needed for 'stable ' operation? I do not see a revision for stable operation for Piledriver/Vishera operation.
I said it before that i would not know good or bad code if it bit me on the ***, however how can some be so certain that it's definitely not the program when P95 has through the history needed 'bug fixes' and 'stable operation' fixes to run. Especially on a CPU that has been out for only a few weeks. Like I said I am genuinely interested in the answer. But my question about bug fixes seems to be ignored. It seems that the prevailing attitude by some is that P95 is infallible when it obviously has needed to be modified and fixed over the years to accommodate new designs.
thanks for the reply Rvaughn.
Edited by Red1776 - 11/20/12 at 9:54am
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post #3784 of 67227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red1776 View Post

Well CK got their first and I don't think I could have said it any better than he did. You in no way answered my question. And if by your own logic, ( P95 is just a set of math problems) then you are saying that every single other load/stress test, and the extensive and intense testing of the binning process would miss "instabilities?'
Thanks for the response, but you really did not address anything in my question which was -what of all of the bug fixes and revisions? If a program is being "bug fixed" and revised for stable support for only Intel, how can you be so sure that it's not an 'unfixed bug' that is the problem here.
(From the P95 Change logs)
27.1 alpha December 5, 2011[34] Intel AVX support (32 bit only)
27.2 alpha December 19, 2011[35] Includes all FFT lengths; first Linux/MPrime test version
27.3 beta February 16, 2012[36] 64 bit AVX support
27.4 beta March 9, 2012[37]
27.6 beta April 24, 2012[38] Bug fixes; (v27.5 was skipped;[39] the underlying math libraries went through a revision, but Prime95 was not modified.)
27.7 beta May 3, 2012[40] More bug fixes
27.7 May 15, 2012 Stable AVX support (for Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge CPUs, Core i3/i5/i7-2xxx and 3xxx models)
if it's simply a mathematical equation being presented , then what are all of these "bug fixes?' or FLAWS in the program being fixed? and if it is just a mathematical equation being presented, then why is the program being altered to to fix the operation on one architecture (note 27.7 'stable' AVX support for sandy bridge and ivy bridge CPU's) what then was the purpose of that revision and why was it needed for 'stable ' operation? I do not see a revision for stable operation for Piledriver/Vishera operation.
I said it before that i would not know good or bad code if it bit me on the ***, however how can some be so certain that it's definitely not the program when P95 has through the history needed 'bug fixes' and 'stable operation' fixes to run.
thanks for the reply Rvaughn.

You're assuming things. Nobody can answer your question except the prime devs.

The fact is there are people with Piledriver cpus who have no issues with prime. Meaning something about some peoples setups - the ones having the issue - is unstable.

Back before the Bulldozer BIOS fix - EVERYBODY'S bulldozer cpu would BSOD in certain Steam games. 100% reproducible by all people. This isn't, meaning something is different about some peoples configs that's affecting stability. If everybody had this issue then fine, but most people don't.
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post #3785 of 67227
Spent some time reading through http://mersenneforum.org.

There is not a lot of mention of Piledriver or Bulldozer. But I do see a lot of is issues with Hyperthreading on the i7's.
What is being mentioned is this "4 workers on i7-2600K, each having 2 threads,"

Has anyone tried this? I have never seen an option for this setting, but it would make sense considering the Module Design.
post #3786 of 67227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red1776 View Post

...
27.6 beta April 24, 2012[38] Bug fixes; (v27.5 was skipped;[39] the underlying math libraries went through a revision, but Prime95 was not modified.)
27.7 beta May 3, 2012[40] More bug fixes
27.7 May 15, 2012 Stable AVX support (for Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge CPUs, Core i3/i5/i7-2xxx and 3xxx models)
if it's simply a mathematical equation being presented , then what are all of these "bug fixes?' or FLAWS in the program being fixed? and if it is just a mathematical equation being presented, then why is the program being altered to to fix the operation on one architecture (note 27.7 'stable' AVX support for sandy bridge and ivy bridge CPU's) what then was the purpose of that revision and why was it needed for 'stable ' operation? I do not see a revision for stable operation for Piledriver/Vishera operation.
I said it before that i would not know good or bad code if it bit me on the ***, however how can some be so certain that it's definitely not the program when P95 has through the history needed 'bug fixes' and 'stable operation' fixes to run. Especially on a CPU that has been out for only a few weeks. Like I said I am genuinely interested in the answer.
thanks for the reply Rvaughn.
Bugs and bug fixes aren't strange mysterious things, though I suppose they can sometimes seem that way. Sometimes it seems like I spend more time finding and fixing bugs than anything else. frown.gif
It's certainly understandable that a program like prime95 would have to be updated to make use of new instruction sets. Existing code, however, should still work on new processors -- just not a fast as it could if it used all the new instructions (that was the whole point in adding the instructions, after all). It's also certainly understandable that bugs can be introduced when making ANY complicated software change. Certainly bugs could have been introduced into prime95 and those bugs could have required new revisions to correct the problems.

HOWEVER, if prime95 works stably on some systems, then it seems pretty clear that any bugs are NOT affecting it's operation. The bugs would affect its operation on any FX-8350 system, if they caused some kind of incompatibility with the new CPUs. I don't know how you'd have a bug in prime95 that could cause it to work unstably only on CERTAIN FX-8350 systems while working stably (hour after hour, run after run) on certain other systems using that same CPU.
post #3787 of 67227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempey View Post

You're assuming things. Nobody can answer your question except the prime devs.
The fact is there are people with Piledriver cpus who have no issues with prime. Meaning something about some peoples setups - the ones having the issue - is unstable.
Back before the Bulldozer BIOS fix - EVERYBODY'S bulldozer cpu would BSOD in certain Steam games. 100% reproducible by all people. This isn't, meaning something is different about some peoples configs that's affecting stability. If everybody had this issue then fine, but most people don't.

well thats a good portion of my point Temp, P95 devs will not release the code so nobody knows what we are dealing with (or if they do they can't talk about it) I have seen bug fixes (common actually) that addresses a problem when a single setting is turned on or off , or when a particular program or process is running at the same time, or when this happens when using a certain chipset, or just about any setting, combination under the sun. Perhaps my question cannot be answered now because nobody knows exactly what the P95 libraries contain by design, however one of my questions was , how a system can be deemed unstable by virtue of having an issue with a single program that nobody but the devs know the makeup of, and that has had to repeatedly had bugs fixed and revisions made for architectures as they are released. I mean if a revision was released for IB and SB for stable operation, then why is it such a leap that the new Vishera may need a fix or revision for it?
The certainty to which this is being denied simply does not compute.
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post #3788 of 67227
If Prime95 is just a program that does math and checks for the right answer, why are there 27 versions of the program and 7 revisions of the 27th version? I would hate to break it to you but Prime95 is not just simply "doing math", it's doing a complex algorithm.

Whatever Prime95 is doing, it has history of not working with new architectures. All you have to do is google "prime95 crashes immediately" (which oddly enough was given to me by google suggestion because it's a popular search query) to see that Prime95 has a massive history of flat out not working right at all on new processors: https://www.google.com/search?q=prime95+crashes+immediately

Also, the whole, "everyone uses it and everyone has used it forever" thing is so fallacious it's not even funny. Appeal to authority, bandwagon, etc. I don't care if Intel and AMD use it in their own binning process or whatever. The program has a strong history of not working on new architectures from Intel and AMD and has been revised and updated more than any other piece of software I know (I don't know a single other program that is on version 27 or greater).
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post #3789 of 67227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red1776 View Post

... I mean if a revision was released for IB and SB for stable operation, then why is it such a leap that the new Vishera may need a fix or revision for it?
The certainty to which this is being denied simply does not compute.
I don't know for certain, of course (and you can try to make points on my uncertainty, as you like) but my GUESS is that the revisions for stability were to newly written code -- code that had been tweaked to make better use of those processors capabilities. The generic, it works on any x86 CPU, code shouldn't have needed to be modified. And IB and SB processors should have handled that older code just fine -- just not as fast as they could the newer code written to take advantage of their new capabilities.

Since there's no code that's been written specifically for PD or BD, as far as I know, then there'd be no need to have bug fixes specific to those CPUs.

Again, while some strange kind of bug like this is possible, theoretically, it just doesn't seem likely. The simpler explanation for the known facts -- that prime95 works stably on some 8350 systems and not on others -- is that there are stability differences in the systems.

And, again, there's nothing magic about it being prime95. If solitaire, MS Player, or Explorer frequently failed on some 8350s while working stably on others, I'd say the same thing. We have a software program that seems to work -- it's working on a lot of different systems with a lot of different CPUs, MBs, Ram, etc. So when it doesn't work, it seems most logical to look at what's DIFFERENT. I think that what you'll find is that some systems are just not as stable as they were believed to be. I've seen no evidence that would make me believe anything to the contrary.

Personally, it would be nice if I could just blame prime95 and claim that I really have a 5 GHz, stable system. I just don't believe it. Prime95 fails after I go much past 4.7 (though it really gets too hot to test much higher than that using prime95 -- which means I wouldn't be safe having my system set up that way since prime95 is a reasonable proxy for some things I actually might use my system for).
post #3790 of 67227
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

If Prime95 is just a program that does math and checks for the right answer, why are there 27 versions of the program and 7 revisions of the 27th version? I would hate to break it to you but Prime95 is not just simply "doing math", it's doing a complex algorithm.
Whatever Prime95 is doing, it has history of not working with new architectures. All you have to do is google "prime95 crashes immediately" (which oddly enough was given to me by google suggestion because it's a popular search query) to see that Prime95 has a massive history of flat out not working right at all on new processors: https://www.google.com/search?q=prime95+crashes+immediately
Also, the whole, "everyone uses it and everyone has used it forever" thing is so fallacious it's not even funny. Appeal to authority, bandwagon, etc. I don't care if Intel and AMD use it in their own binning process or whatever. The program has a strong history of not working on new architectures from Intel and AMD and has been revised and updated more than any other piece of software I know (I don't know a single other program that is on version 27 or greater).

might I also add in here that the computations that is in that algarythm don't apply to all computing.. when you are talking about rendering or graphic offloading the computations run differently.. yes I know its good to stress all cores.. the issue is that it can not soley be depended on. so doing an array of testing and TBH I like doing benchmarks as well..

This arguement is getting to be annnoying because there are many versions and revision (any software has to catch up to new hardware)

do i think that it completely horrible for Vishera.. no
Do i think that it is completely stable for Vishera.. no

what i do think is that if gives a good idea where the issue is and allows you to test heat. In addition some of the people that are having issues has anyone tried upping or lowering voltages and played around with it..

Im just saying that there is too much bickering about how bad it is and no test results of actually trying to find out why its crashing
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