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[OFFICIAL] FX-8320/FX-8350 Vishera Owners Club - Page 468

post #4671 of 67496
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

He's just suggesting that it needs patches to work correctly all the time on PD. Theoretically, Prime95 27.7 has the needed patch for the Bulldozer design.

27.7 is what I am running.
All programs can have bugs of course. I believe from what I googled the prime95 bug with BD was a systematic failure to start.

Not intermittent failures like we are seeing with Prime95 and PD OC ... For those types of errors, it's much less clear cut that it's a software bug, though of course it could be.

Maybe I need to refresh my assembly skills a bit and take a look at the source. At least it is available for Prime95.
post #4672 of 67496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red1776 View Post


Kz, do you have a fan on the VRM/NB? they get very warm on that board with heavy PD OC's

Not at the moment. I will soon though. Stupid pin layout for the fans on the Asus. Still trying to figure out what happened to the Gigabyte..
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post #4673 of 67496
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Prime95 has problems, can we please drop this?
https://www.google.com/search?q=prime95+stock+crash&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t
Even Athlons have had problems running Prime95 before it got patched.

Sadly, your link does not provide any evidence of a confirmed bug of Prime95 with Piledriver.

So no, doesn't seem we can drop this just yet.

IMO, whenever there is a program does not run with OC, one has to suspect the OC as the root cause first, and a program bug only second.

Remember that the chip was not designed or tested to run at the higher clocks we are running.
post #4674 of 67496
I am getting tired of reading about prime not having problems or having problems. If you think prime has problems then use something else and if you think prime is golden then use it. but lets MOVE ON! doh.gif
post #4675 of 67496
Quote:
Originally Posted by madbrain View Post

So maybe we need to run an older version of Prime95 without AVX, if the bug is in the AVX code .

I appreciate you trying to deduce the problem, but you don't need to deduce when you have evidence.

Through google search results, we have mounds and mounds of evidence that shows that Prime95 has problems with new architectures, even at stock settings, and those problems are fixed with an update to Prime95. I realize that patterns don't always repeat themselves, but the possibility of Prime95 needing changes to its code in order to run properly on AMD Piledriver are high given the history of Prime95 and new architectures.

AFAIK Prime95 is closed source. You could try running an old version of Prime95 and see if it makes things stable, but even if it's still not stable you would just prove that it might not be the new AVX instructions.

I personally do not care. You run a stability test to see if your overclock is 100% stable. In order to do that, you need a tool that you have 100% confidence in that it will tell you when your system is unstable. Prime95 is definitely not that tool. It has a history of not working with new architectures for unknown reasons without overclocks being applied.

Now, we are fighting over if a benchmark that has a history of not being stable on new architectures until updated should be used on to test stability on a brand new architecture while that benchmark has had no updates to support that processor?

There are lots of tools that do the same thing as Prime95. We have OCCT, IBT, AMD Overdrive Tests, etc.
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post #4676 of 67496
Quote:
Originally Posted by madbrain View Post

Who said the other tests were broken ?
The fact that they pass most of the time would point to them *not* being broken.
They just seem insufficient.

Maybe the word broken was poorly used, but the idea is that they are all now irrelevant. I can pass LinPack for days on end, Same for OCCT, and AMD Overdrive. But prime 95 fails in less than 4 minutes? Not only that, but I left the machine running a week and a half straight folding in the off time, gaming other times, with no errors. The only thing that is guaranteed to be unstable is Prime. All the evidence in the world points to PD just not working will with Prime, and not a single bit of evidence supports the "Prime is perfect software" mentality.

Considering these are stress tests, and that they pass OCs that Prime 95 deems unstable, means that they are basically "broken."

As for people who fail Prime95 at stock settings, all you have to do is google, there are plenty of people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bios0110 

Some guy said that logic dictates that if only 1 application out of 5 fails consistently then there must be something wrong with the program.
Actually, that is not the case.
When a software engineer makes an application such as this, she/he must decide what to test and how to test it.

For all you know, most of the "test" applications you use don't actually test anything. That is, it could very well be that they just give the CPU some work to do and if that work finishes then you "passed". You have no idea if the computational results of each operation were even checked by the software.
Simplified example to show the point:
Think of these as series of operations in 1 run:
2 + 5 (= 7 answer ignored, not verified)
5 + 8 (= 20 answer ignored, not verified)
23 / 3 (= 7.5784 answer ignored, not verified)
45 / 5 (= 8.9999 answer ignored, not verified)
...
Congratulations! You passed. (Because each operation completed without the app crashing)
A smarter test would instead verify the result of each operation:
2 + 5 = 7 (true)
5 + 8 = 20 (Wrong, programmer bothered to check the result, now must decide to terminate test or let it run)
23 / 3 = 7.5784 (Wrong, programmer bothered to check the result, now must decide to terminate test or let it run)
46 / 5 = 9.9999 (Wrong, programmer bothered to check the result, now must decide to terminate test or let it run)
Keeping this simple, as you can see, you have no idea what is actually done by these applications at even such a trivial level. Even if some operations are checked other operations may not be.
Adding to that, you don't know what actual operations are being performed. In the end, at the assembly level, it is all simple registry operations, which if you know anything about programming would know that these operations are CPU agnostic across x86 x86-64. In other words, they don't have to rewrite the app just because AMD release a new x86-64 CPU...
Prime95 does not have FX8320 issues because I have ran it for 12hrs with no errors.
Overclocked, for me, Prime95 stability is vcore related. With less vcore test fails sooner. So it is obvious that this is an overclock issue and not faulty code issue. The code doesn't become better code proportional to the amount of extra volts I add (test runs longer)... The code is fixed. With high volts the overclock is stable because the results of the operations performed by prime95 are correct and if I give it less volts the results are not correct. Simple as that.
I have read what the IBT guy said (that IBT can heat better and find stability issues faster than Prime95). In practice I don't find this to be true at all. It doesn't heat up my FX8320 or 990FXA mobo any better than Prime95. Nor does it ever find errors for me. Even when extremely unstable and Prime95 finds error in 3 min. Most other benchmarks barely heat up my FX8320. I've ran all the top of benchmarking apps and my scores are what they should be but these apps barely budge the stock temps. Prime95 maxes them (at 60 deg C).

Last I checked, all stress test checked the results for errors, that includes LinX(IBT), OCCT, AMD Overdrive, Prime95. I don't know of a single test that works like the first one you described.
post #4677 of 67496
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

I appreciate you trying to deduce the problem, but you don't need to deduce when you have evidence.
Through google search results, we have mounds and mounds of evidence that shows that Prime95 has problems with new architectures, even at stock settings, and those problems are fixed with an update to Prime95. I realize that patterns don't always repeat themselves, but the possibility of Prime95 needing changes to its code in order to run properly on AMD Piledriver are high given the history of Prime95 and new architectures.

But that is the question, whether it requires any changes for Piledriver at all or not.

It appears the developers are aware of Piledriver and are discussing optimizing for it.
http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=17457

However, there is no mention of any known problem for the current version.
Quote:
AFAIK Prime95 is closed source.

No.

http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft/#source
Quote:
You run a stability test to see if your overclock is 100% stable.

Agree.
Quote:
In order to do that, you need a tool that you have 100% confidence in that it will tell you when your system is unstable.

Agree.
Quote:
Prime95 is definitely not that tool. It has a history of not working with new architectures for unknown reasons without overclocks being applied.

Well, the change log and the source code would surely show what those "unknown reasons" could have been.

Let's not confuse different categories of problems.

If a test program fails systematically without OC on a new chip, then it's easy to dismiss it as useless.
And I would have done that myself if that was the case, believe me.

However, I certainly don't see anyone saying Prime95 fails systematically on Piledriver without OC.

Another posted said somebody had it fail on PD without OC, but I couldn't find any reference to that instance myself.

My own run at stock settings is going 8 hours now and no errors - that's 1 hour longer than I have had it going with any OC setting, and I'm keeping it overnight.
Quote:
Now, we are fighting over if a benchmark that has a history of not being stable on new architectures until updated should be used on to test stability on a brand new architecture while that benchmark has had no updates to support that processor?
There are lots of tools that do the same thing as Prime95. We have OCCT, IBT, AMD Overdrive Tests, etc.

Not every chip necessarily requires an update. Most of the Prime95 updates have been optimizations for new instructions set as they become available on new chips, not t fixes for the inability to run on new chips, though there have been a few of those certainly.

It seems you and a few others choose to shoot the messenger (Prime95) when it tells you that your OC system is unstable. It just seems unwise to me to ignore it unless or until the reason is known. I prefer err on the side of caution. And since my chip appears to run Prime95 just fine without OC, but not with OC, I can only assume the OC is what breaks the program, ie. the OC is not stable.
post #4678 of 67496
Quote:
Originally Posted by madbrain View Post

IMO, whenever there is a program does not run with OC, one has to suspect the OC as the root cause first, and a program bug only second.
Remember that the chip was not designed or tested to run at the higher clocks we are running.

I'm pretty sure Prime failed on stock too for some.
I mean for vishera specifically.

--edit--
I'm too slow.
Edited by roofrider - 12/1/12 at 1:06am
post #4679 of 67496
Quote:
Originally Posted by roofrider View Post

I'm pretty sure Prime failed on stock too for some.

Would sure be nice to see the reports and read the details, what version of the software was failing in particular.
post #4680 of 67496
Quote:
Originally Posted by madbrain View Post

Would sure be nice to see the reports and read the details, what version of the software was failing in particular.

There were posts in this thread which said it failed for them at stock.
It'll be great if one of those guys take it to the mersenne forums and let them know of it.
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