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post #62491 of 68053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan45 View Post

There are many different scheme when it comes to doubling some better than others. This is taken from Sin's guide here http://sinhardware.com/index.php/vrm-articles/82-vrm-guide if you want some reading.


I 've seen this before, but for practical purposes it means little. Half of that is about quadruplers too, which is not doubling, it's quadrupling. All i know, is that all doubled motherboards that have appeared in the forum, are much closer to the results of the "true 8 phase", than to the results of the 4 phase. More important is the quality and amperage of the mosfets at this point, cause the Biostar TA790 is 6 phase too, but its results were worse than the 4 of the Asrock 970 extreme3.
Edited by Undervolter - 10/6/16 at 7:49am
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post #62492 of 68053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

Ghetto rig, take 2! Woo hoo!

Took the Scythe 60mm fan, and anchored it between the Arctic F12 case fan and the 8pin power cable with zip tie.


Result. Again, at the 9th IBT AVX test:




CPU 55,5C (vs 60 before).

The best part! Measured the mosfets on the back side of the motherboard with IR thermometer. Max temp 88C, most of the time was between 85C and 77C. That's 11C drop in the worst case, 22C in the best.

Considering that the hardest thing i will do (x264) draws 20W less, I 'd say i am ok! I mean, i have 5 Asrock 970 Extreme3. I couldn't just sit and consider them all wasted, could it? Undervolting and VRM fan FTW! thumb.gifbiggrin.gif




I am not even sure it's worth it to buy yet another motherboard at this point. I still have the 2 Giga UD3P, who are 8 phases anyway. In total i have 5 spare motherboards. Heck at that VRM temp, even if they die one every year, i will still make 5 years out of them...

I will also change thermal pads and paste on northbridges if i find time at Xmas. This Asrock currently runs better than the UD3P i 'd say. At least no USB or audio glitches. It's a shame to replace it. Also, i was surprised at how many fan headers this non fully ATX motherboard has. They came in handy.

Boy, that was a happy ending for an adventurous undervolting story! Never had so much trouble with a motherboard undervolted before! After all, a mosfet doesn't know in how many phases you 've put it in. It only knows if it's sweating or not. I bet many overclockers have worse temps than mine on the back of their mobo...

So, yeah, it's 4+1 phase, but the mosfet stays at 88C at IBT. Not too bad.

P.S.: Did i mention that i have to buy a lot of these wonderful Scythe 60mm fans? Yes, i did! tongue.gif They do the job and are silent too! I actually have a multiheader thing that is adhesive to any flat surface of the case you want and you can connect something like 4+ fans on it. Never used it. I could put another Scythe fan on the northbridge too, like i had it before with that thingie...

Those boards are pretty bad, Ive owned two. For anything in the FX-4000 series they are fine, was able to push an FX-4100 to 4.7 on one actually. Anything with a higher draw than 95w stock will give you problems though. At least you found a way to make them usable for your application. thumb.gif
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post #62493 of 68053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjiw View Post

the 15mm fans are brilliant for socket cooling!


Can I mount fan like this in Define R5 without having fan holes on side panel? Very tight space, same results with temperatures?
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post #62494 of 68053
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

Those boards are pretty bad, Ive owned two. For anything in the FX-4000 series they are fine, was able to push an FX-4100 to 4.7 on one actually. Anything with a higher draw than 95w stock will give you problems though. At least you found a way to make them usable for your application. thumb.gif

This motherboard model is very strange. Like i said, i had its sister motherboard running 8320@4Ghz for months no problem. This one, throttled half way in IBT AVX. Its sister motherboard, which i originally used, runs 4 years later an 6300@4Ghz and has done much hard work (x264 encoding = 100% CPU load). However, i didn't measure the temp on the back of the motherboard. But somehow, it always behaved better. I 've googled this motherboard a lot over the years and there are people who throttle on 6300 stock and others who managed to overclock 83xx a bit past 4Ghz. Either there is tremendous differnece in airflow or there is a manufacturing variation. I can't find other explanation. In my local forum, at least for a year, the supposedly "gurus" were even reccommending it to budget gamers. That's also how i came to buy a bunch of them, thinking "if they are good for gamers, then they will plenty for me". rolleyes.gif And the 1st one, like i said, never gave me problem with the 6300@4Ghz that i initially had, so i figured "even for undervolted 83xx, it won't have problem" and even bought an R2,0. Then this one comes and throttles at 4Ghz... Mysteries of the motherboards... But at least now i know that i 'd better put a VRM fan on the other one too, just to be sure.
Edited by Undervolter - 10/6/16 at 12:19pm
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post #62495 of 68053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

I don't know who invented this nomenclature, but i find it moronic and i will never adopt it. To me, the logical thing to say, is that it is "8+2 phases using doubler" or "8+2 phases doubled".
Whomever invented it wanted people to not be fooled into thinking the board has 8 true phases when it has 4 with a doubler to create 8 virtual phases.

"8+2 phases doubled" implies 16+4 as the result.

"8+2 phases using doubler" is so ambiguous in can mean 16+4 or 4 phases doubled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

Because the motherboard still has double the amount of mosfets and chokes compared to the normal 4+1 phase. As a result, they are not comparable, neither in heat tolerance nor in overclocking potential. The only thing the doubler does, is split a signal. Besides, most if not all AM3+ motherboards, use doublers.
You're glossing over a bunch of things, like digital versus analog and the quality of the components.

The Stilt discussed the phase/MOSFET issue and said, while it's possible to create a native 4 phase system (without a doubler) that's superior or equivalent to the native 8 phase top-end boards' systems, it requires increased component quality. There also seems to be the issue of how much surface area is available to dissipate heat. More FETs spread around makes it easier to use a heat sink to provide more surface area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

I went to 4.5Ghz IBT stable on the UD3P, without using any VRM fan and without installing a 2nd side fan. Not even close to the "normal" 4+1, such as the Asrock.
Apparently Gigabyte has dramatically downgraded the VRM system with the 2.0 version. There is no way to come close to 4.5 with the VRM sink unless you want your MOSFETs to throttle at lower clocks than that. Even with optimized air cooling on the sink in the 2.0 board the VRMs get into the mid 80s at 4.4 under Prime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

I've seen this before, but for practical purposes it means little.
I would reconsider that considering the differences there, like the pseudo setup.
post #62496 of 68053
Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition222 View Post

Whomever invented it wanted people to not be fooled into thinking the board has 8 true phases when it has 4 with a doubler to create 8 virtual phases.

"8+2 phases doubled" implies 16+4 as the result.
"8+2 phases using doubler" is so ambiguous in can mean 16+4 or 4 phases doubled.

Then i apologize, my english isn't enough to translate from my language. In my language, saying "4+1 phase doubled", means (2+1) x2 and 8+2 doubled means (4+1) x2. Apparently in english it's the opposite.

I am not objecting on the intentions, i am objecting on the wording. Apparently i was wrong and in english it's the opposite of what i thought.
Quote:
You're glossing over a bunch of things, like digital versus analog and the quality of the components.

What has the nature of the PWM chip have to do with the doubler? You can use doublers with both analog and digital PWM chip. Or the quality of the components? I was talking only about the nomenclature, what has quality of components have to do with that? Obviously, you can make a digital crappy phase using crap mosfets or a much better analog phase using much better mosfets. The Asrock 970 extreme3 uses digital PWM. It still throttles...

Quote:
The Stilt discussed the phase/MOSFET issue and said, while it's possible to create a native 4 phase system (without a doubler) that's superior or equivalent to the native 8 phase top-end boards' systems, it requires increased component quality. There also seems to be the issue of how much surface area is available to dissipate heat. More FETs spread around makes it easier to use a heat sink to provide more surface area.

Obviously...My 4+1 Asrock does better than the 6+1 Biostar. Why? Because apparently, the Asrock's mosfets are either better or they get less hot. And the UD3P with doublers, does better than both of them. Self-evident things.
Quote:
Apparently Gigabyte has dramatically downgraded the VRM system with the 2.0 version. There is no way to come close to 4.5 with the VRM sink unless you want your MOSFETs to throttle at lower clocks than that. Even with optimized air cooling on the sink in the 2.0 board the VRMs get into the mid 80s at 4.4 under Prime.
I would reconsider that considering the differences there, like the pseudo setup.

Well, the UD3P R2.0, did get better audio... So somehow they got to keep the costs the same, cause the price sure remained the same. It's not strange that they chose to nerf the VRM...

Here's the 4.5Ghz run i had made.





With 1 front, 1 side fan, 1 rear exhaust. Truth be told, at the time i had the scotk Scythe fan on the Rasetsu, which is better than the one i use now. But the one i use now is much quieter. Never mind the 5Ghz on Open Hardware Monitor, it was glitching during IBT on the UD3P (it hangs periodically and when it defreezes it takes a second to read the clocks properly).

For the record, i had started IBT at 4.8 without throttling yet, but aborted due to the fact that the cooler was getting too hot too rapidly. The voltage at 4.5 was unoptimized. I chose it randomly just to see if i could go to 4.5.

I 've seen users in the forum with MSI 970 Gaming (6+2 digital) or ASUS M5A97 (6+2 digital), with much more fans in their cases, that can't even touch 4.5.
Edited by Undervolter - 10/6/16 at 2:47pm
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post #62497 of 68053
Ok, so I'm a tad confused over here. I was bored and decided to rerun some benchmarks after fiddling with my overclock again. I was trying to break that 25% stable barrier, I got 24.9%, needless to say I was a little frustrated by that. Anyways, I went with a more aggressive FSB overclock and pulled a 243 BCLK. With a final OC of 5.120 which is only 120 over the 9590.

Now, to the main point. While I was running the benchmarks I noticed something really odd on the Passmark FP test. I had almost the same gain going from a baseline 9590 as the baseline 9590 has from the baseline 8350.

I assumed this was from the more aggressive FSB clock, but any corrections would be appreciated. It honestly confuses me.



I know Passmark isn't the greatest, but I ran the gambit of all my bench programs today. Truecrypt, Cinebench, Geekbench, x264.
Edited by BulletBait - 10/6/16 at 8:42pm
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post #62498 of 68053
How reliable is the CPU-Z bench?
Quote:
Originally Posted by undervolter 
I've seen users in the forum with MSI 970 Gaming (6+2 digital) or ASUS M5A97 (6+2 digital), with much more fans in their cases, that can't even touch 4.5.
I've been able to, barely, Prime at 4.7 on the UD3P 2.0 but the problem is always the VRM. They just get way too hot, especially with 27.9. I managed to do the in-place FFT test for an hour at 4.7 but the VRM temp was well above spec and the ambient was very cold, with the machine sitting next to an AC floor slot. CPU temp was also very low because it's a water loop with lots of rad. Plus, LinX indicates some type of throttling starting with 4.5, as if the power delivery can't manage to cope with the demands even at reasonable heat levels (before the heat builds up too much with the VRM sink which always happens). The GFLOP performance at 4.7 is not as high as it should be, although Cinebench shows the improvement. Weirdly, too, LinX does not stress the CPU nearly as much as Prime, maybe because of its reliance on AVX.

The throttling is odder still because it shows 100% CPU utilization after the time it takes to load the test but the GFLOPs aren't good. They seem to stop improving after 4.5.

Perhaps having to increase the BCLK is the origin of these issues. The UD3P 2.0 won't boot above a 22 multi.

I finally got fed up and got a used Crosshair Z because I managed to get one of the rare EK blocks. I've had enough of the UD3P and its bottlenecks. But, for someone on air who is happy at 4.4 it's still a good enough value.
Edited by superstition222 - 10/6/16 at 9:03pm
post #62499 of 68053
Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition222 View Post

How reliable is the CPU-Z bench?

I didn't even know they had a benchmark now. I had to google it and saw it was released last year.
tongue.gif
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post #62500 of 68053
Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition222 View Post

How reliable is the CPU-Z bench?
I've been able to, barely, Prime at 4.7 on the UD3P 2.0 but the problem is always the VRM. They just get way too hot, especially with 27.9. I managed to do the in-place FFT test for an hour at 4.7 but the VRM temp was well above spec and the ambient was very cold, with the machine sitting next to an AC floor slot. CPU temp was also very low because it's a water loop with lots of rad. Plus, LinX indicates some type of throttling starting with 4.5, as if the power delivery can't manage to cope with the demands even at reasonable heat levels (before the heat builds up too much with the VRM sink which always happens). The GFLOP performance at 4.7 is not as high as it should be, although Cinebench shows the improvement. Weirdly, too, LinX does not stress the CPU nearly as much as Prime, maybe because of its reliance on AVX.

The throttling is odder still because it shows 100% CPU utilization after the time it takes to load the test but the GFLOPs aren't good. They seem to stop improving after 4.5.

Perhaps having to increase the BCLK is the origin of these issues. The UD3P 2.0 won't boot above a 22 multi.

I finally got fed up and got a used Crosshair Z because I managed to get one of the rare EK blocks. I've had enough of the UD3P and its bottlenecks. But, for someone on air who is happy at 4.4 it's still a good enough value.

I remember your efforts to go past the VRM problem. I think Stilt had mentioned once, there was some missing chip in the UD3P R2.0. How to say, we give you better audio, but we have to take something away. Besides, the UD3P R1.0, if you don't mind the crazy BIOS, at least here stole sales from the higher end models. So, if you were in Gigabyte's shoes, you 'd think "hmmm, maybe i made it a bit TOO well?".

There is also something weird going on with the base design at 4.4Ghz. In the R2, like you say, you hit VRM wall, in the R1.0, you don't hit wall, but you lose Cool N Quiet (it keeps working only up to 4.4).


Anyway, example of what i meant about stealing the higher end sales. This is not mine, it belongs to user "Supreme Dark King" on an italian forum. Cooling is Noctua D15. IBT Maximum 4.8Gghz, on 970 UD3P Rev1



^ He wasn't even an expert overclocker, he opened a thread to ask others to help him overclock better.

He actually made it to 5Ghz, but IBT would fail at test #6. And i don't think he used VRM fan. So, others see this and think "then why buy the Gigabyte 990FX"... Gigabyte gave the reply in R2.0. : "Because you won't go higher than 4.4 anymore". biggrin.gif

Prime95 27.9 ( i use that too) in deed draws a bit more power than IBT:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1500294/why-some-people-dont-like-prime95/310#post_22549061


But, at least up to 4Ghz that i go, every time i passed IBT at Very High (with positive values +3.XX), i could also pass 10h Prime Blend. Now if you shoot for very high clocks, this little difference may make a difference, i don't know.
Edited by Undervolter - 10/7/16 at 4:50am
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Main
(16 items)
 
Dedicated Encoder
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8320@4Ghz Gigabyte 970 UD3P rev2.1 Gainward GTX 750Ti Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 16GB (4x4GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOptical Drive
Crucial BX100 250GB Western Digital Green 2TB LiteOn Blu-Ray Burner IHBS 112-2 LG BH16NS55 Blu-Ray Burner 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Scythe Katana 3 Windows 7 Pro 64bit ASUS 22" VS228HR Microsoft Wired Keyboard 600 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA 430W Sharkoon VG4-V Logitech M90 Onboard 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8300 Asrock 970 Extreme3 HIS 6570 Silence Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 8GB (2x4GB) CAS9 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Plextor M6S 128GB Toshiba 2TB SATAIII LiteOn Blu Ray burner IHBS 112-2 Xigmatek Balder 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Pro 64bit Samsung S22B350H Microsoft Wired 600 Corsair VS350 
CaseMouseAudio
Lepa LPC 306 Logitech M90 Onboard 
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