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[OFFICIAL] FX-8320/FX-8350 Vishera Owners Club - Page 859

post #8581 of 67229
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerRestore View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

"Max" = 62C
"OK" = 70's
Thermal shutdown = 90C
Degrade = 96C
All information from RAM goes through Cache anyway, which is in the center.

RAM -> L3 -> L2.

Also, you generally want the part that talks to ram to be as close to the ram as possible and vice versa. Trust me here; you do not know more then AMD does about building a chip.

It looks like it's going Ram -> IMC and then splits off into each of the L3 Cache (there's better pictures that show the grids)

We definately don't know more than AMD about building chips, but as enthusiasts that push the limits, we probably see some things they don't.

If someone does try the lower NB/RAM speed to push their Overclock at lower voltages, please post your results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerRestore View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krusher33 View Post

Them engineers you know... they tend to miss the simple things. LOL (former engineering student)

My RASA kit couldn't handle my 8350 at 1.55v. So I just put in an order for a Koolance 380a today. Supposedly one of the top waterblocks to get now.

I know what you mean, that Phenom II IMC bottleneck was a huge fiasco. thumb.gif (good thing for NB Overclocking)

Alright, lets clear up those misunderstandings.

1) No, you don't see anything they don't, primarily since everything they do get pushed through Enterprise first. As an "Enthusiast" you get hand-me-downs that others have been playing with for a while. You are not smarter then AMD.

2) There was never a problem with the IMC. L3 cache speed was bound to the Northbridge speed; faster northbridge = faster Cache.

3) The only reason the NB felt "slow" was that the NB speed should be 1.5x the RAM speed in that design. 1333 RAM should have a 2000 NB (and hey, 1333 was the supported speed too). In their own guide for the chip, they recommended 2400 for 1600 RAM as well. It's also a large heat increase to clock up the NB, something they would like to avoid. Enthusiasts who would have put in faster ram would likely be overclocking anyway, so it was a workable solution.

So... ya. Understand what you're talking about before you call AMD stupid next time.
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post #8582 of 67229
I'm wondering if my PSU is the reason why I can't push to 5GHz. I've been rocking the Cooler Master Real Power Pro 850w since late 2007.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171017

I'm currently at 4.8GHz near 1.55v. Heat isn't the issue since I'm stable around 55c under load (OCCT). When I push to 5GHz, the computer will start up fine, but once I start the OCCT test, the computer will freeze a few seconds into it. PSU? Yay or nay?
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post #8583 of 67229
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Equinoux View Post

I'm wondering if my PSU is the reason why I can't push to 5GHz. I've been rocking the Cooler Master Real Power Pro 850w since late 2007.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171017

I'm currently at 4.8GHz near 1.55v. Heat isn't the issue since I'm stable around 55c under load (OCCT). When I push to 5GHz, the computer will start up fine, but once I start the OCCT test, the computer will freeze a few seconds into it. PSU? Yay or nay?

+12V1@18A,+12V2@18A,+12V3@18A,+12V4@18A,+12V5@18A,+12V6@18A,

12 x 18 = 216w available to the CPU.

Of course, there's 6 rails and only 4 PCI-e, but I'd write off the remaining rail as SATA/Molex.

So: "Yes that is probably your problem"
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post #8584 of 67229
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

+12V1@18A,+12V2@18A,+12V3@18A,+12V4@18A,+12V5@18A,+12V6@18A,

12 x 18 = 216w available to the CPU.

Of course, there's 6 rails and only 4 PCI-e, but I'd write off the remaining rail as SATA/Molex.

So: "Yes that is probably your problem"

Thanks. Do you have any suggestions for a great, modular PSU?
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post #8585 of 67229
On the topic here,

I know when I keep my PHII at a constant clock but only change the ram speed I see a large increase in heat output. I suppose this is the same effect as keeping the processor at the same voltage but clocking it higher... it increases heat.

Simply asking the unit to "do more work". I cant get a stable speed @ or above 1866 ram @ 3ghz NB... but I can decrease the NB to about 2600mhz and increase the ram speed... but then it's a trade off and I'm loosing NB performance (caches are clocked lower).

I can only assume the same principle exists with Bulldozer / piledriver.

And further more, the changes in Pildriver show up in the L2 cache performance:
Quote:
AnandTech - AMD Launches Opteron 6300 series with "Piledriver" cores

The L2 cache latency and bandwidth has not changed, but AMD did quite a few optimizations. From AMD engineering:

"While the total bandwidth available between the L2 and the rest of the core did not change from Bulldozer to Piledriver, the existing bandwidth is now used more effectively. Some unnecessary instruction decode hint data writes to the L2 that were present in Bulldozer have been removed in Piledriver. Also, some misses sent to the L2 that would get canceled in Bulldozer are prevented from being sent to the L2 at all in Piledriver. This allows the L2’s existing resources to be applied toward more useful work.”

This Means that cache operations misses in L1 that would have normally been set to L2 (which created a lot of bulldozers cache latency issues) are now not allowed to take the cache cycles away from the pipeline. Requiring instead a new start cycle. This apparently is faster than than the cache continuing the search than just starting the operation again. I assume because of the the longer cycle length of the pipeline in AMD's new CMT cores. (and is also why you see the L2 cache performance differences in vishera vs. zambezi... look at the L2 Read performance numbers in Aida64 memory benchmark)

This is more of a instant performance "work around" than it is a design improvement. I don't know if this can even be solved until the 28nm fab due to the need for lower latency caches while maintaining the high clock necessary (which increases the bandwidth) to keep the cores fed.

AMD pretty much has the beginnings of a great pipeline but cant keep it fed do to cache restraints that are ultimately restricted by the fab process. Add on top of that the small associative L1 cache Piledriver is coping with, and you have the ultimate inability to get the correct information on the fly to the pipeline.

This is why Piledriver is great at parallel tasks right now, but falls short in random IO (or IMC) operations. Its really all about the cache, prefetch, branch misprediction cycle penalty, and lack of decode per core.
Quote:
The Bulldozer Aftermath: Delving Even Deeper


The Real Shortcomings: Branch Misprediction Penalty and Instruction Cache Hit Rate

Bulldozer is a deeply pipelined CPU, just like Sandy Bridge, but the latter has a µop cache that can cut the fetching and decoding cycles out of the branch misprediction penalty. The lower than expected performance in SAP and SQL Server, plus the fact that the worst performing subbenches in SPEC CPU2006 int are the ones with hard to predict branches, all points to there being a serious problem with branch misprediction.

Our Code Analyst profiling shows that AMD engineers did a good job on the branch prediction unit: the BPU definitely predicts better than the previous AMD designs. The problem is that Bulldozer cannot hide its long misprediction penalty, which Intel does manage with Sandy Bridge. That also explains why AMD states that branch prediction improvements in "Piledriver" ("Trinity") are only modest (1% performance improvements). As branch predictors get more advanced, a few tweaks here and there cannot do much.

It will be interesting to see if AMD will adopt a µop cache in the near future, as it would lower the branch prediction penalty, save power, and lower the pressure on the decoding part. It looks like a perfect match for this architecture.

Another significant problem is that the L1 instruction cache does not seem to cope well with 2-threads. We have measured significantly higher miss rates once we run two threads on the 2-way 64KB L1 instruction cache. It looks like the associativity of that cache is simply too low. There is a reason why Intel has an 8-way associative cache to run two threads.

Edited by MadGoat - 2/15/13 at 10:14am
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post #8586 of 67229
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerRestore View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

"Max" = 62C
"OK" = 70's
Thermal shutdown = 90C
Degrade = 96C
All information from RAM goes through Cache anyway, which is in the center.

RAM -> L3 -> L2.

Also, you generally want the part that talks to ram to be as close to the ram as possible and vice versa. Trust me here; you do not know more then AMD does about building a chip.

It looks like it's going Ram -> IMC and then splits off into each of the L3 Cache (there's better pictures that show the grids)

We definately don't know more than AMD about building chips, but as enthusiasts that push the limits, we probably see some things they don't.

If someone does try the lower NB/RAM speed to push their Overclock at lower voltages, please post your results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerRestore View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krusher33 View Post

Them engineers you know... they tend to miss the simple things. LOL (former engineering student)

My RASA kit couldn't handle my 8350 at 1.55v. So I just put in an order for a Koolance 380a today. Supposedly one of the top waterblocks to get now.

I know what you mean, that Phenom II IMC bottleneck was a huge fiasco. thumb.gif (good thing for NB Overclocking)

Alright, lets clear up those misunderstandings.

1) No, you don't see anything they don't, primarily since everything they do get pushed through Enterprise first. As an "Enthusiast" you get hand-me-downs that others have been playing with for a while. You are not smarter then AMD.

2) There was never a problem with the IMC. L3 cache speed was bound to the Northbridge speed; faster northbridge = faster Cache.

3) The only reason the NB felt "slow" was that the NB speed should be 1.5x the RAM speed in that design. 1333 RAM should have a 2000 NB (and hey, 1333 was the supported speed too). In their own guide for the chip, they recommended 2400 for 1600 RAM as well. It's also a large heat increase to clock up the NB, something they would like to avoid. Enthusiasts who would have put in faster ram would likely be overclocking anyway, so it was a workable solution.

So... ya. Understand what you're talking about before you call AMD stupid next time.
what should the multiplier between ram and nb on these fix chips be?
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post #8587 of 67229
Has anyone considered delidding an fx CPU for lowering temps or at least replacing the compound under the lid?
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post #8588 of 67229
Got a quick question, I'm trying to optimize my system around the 8320 at 4.8ghz for daily use. I have two sets of RAM available to me, 16GB (4x4) of DDR3 1600 1.35v stuff, and 8GB (2x4GB) of DDR3 2133 1.65v. Would it be better to run the low voltage kit with CAS9 timings, or the 2133 kit with CAS11, or something in between? I know this 2133 kit will do 2000mhz at 9-10-9-30 1T with Ivy Bridge but I don't know how good this IMC is, would that be my best bet?
post #8589 of 67229
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahboom View Post

Has anyone considered delidding an fx CPU for lowering temps or at least replacing the compound under the lid?

IF Piledriver uses TIM and not solder, I doubt that you would be able to delid one without cutting through traces or top package mounted ICs. I haven't seen or heard of anyone getting the IHS off yet. (woringk or dead chip.)
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post #8590 of 67229
FX83xx Series IMC can do 4 DIMMs of DDR1600.

Shoot my FX8120 runs 16GB fine at DDR1600 too.
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Corsair H100 Extreme Performance CPU Cooler Windows 7 Ultimate 64-Bit ASUS VS248H-P Black 24" 2ms HDMI LED ASUS VS248H-P Black 24" 2ms HDMI LED 
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ASUS VS248H-P Black 24" 2ms HDMI LED Acer AL2002W Silver 20" DVI 16:10  Saitek Eclipse II USB CORSAIR RM Series RM850 850W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Cooler Master HAF 922 Logitech M100 USB ALLSOP Metal Art Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Platinum Fatal1ty C... 
OtherOtherOtherOther
Black Magic Intensity Pro 10-Bit HDMI Track IR 4 Pro Ceton InfiniTV 4 PCIe CH Products Pro Pedals 
OtherOtherOtherOther
CH Fighter Stick and Pro Throttle Fanatec Forza Motorsport CSR Wheel Fanatec CSR Shifter Set US Fanatec CSR Elite Pedals US 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD FX-8120 Zambezi 3.1GHz (FD8120FRGUBOX ) ASRock 990FX Extreme4 SAPPHIRE 100354XTL Radeon HD 7870 XT w/Boost 2G... G.SKILL Sniper Gaming Series 16GB (F3-12800CL9Q... 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Western Digital WD Black WD1002FAEX 1TB 7200 RP... ASUS 24X DVD Burner (Model DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS ... CORSAIR Hydro Series H100 (CWCH100) Extreme Per... Windows 7 Ultimate 64-Bit 
KeyboardPowerCaseAudio
Microsoft SIDEWINDER X4 Keyboard OCZ ModXStream Pro 700W Modular High Performanc... COOLER MASTER HAF 922 RC-922M-KKN3-GP Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer Fatal1t... 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom II X2 555 Black Edition Callisto 3.2... ASRock M3A770DE AM3 AMD 770 ATX XFX HD-583X-ZAFV Radeon HD 5830 1GB 256-bit DDR5 G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 (Model F3-12... 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Western Digital WD Black WD6401AALS 640GB 7200 ... ASUS DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS Black SATA 24X DVD Burner Stock Cooling Windows 7 Home Premium 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Hanns·G HZ201HPB Black 20" 5ms HDMI Widescreen Rosewill RK-7310 Black USB OCZ ModXStream Pro 700W Modular High Performanc... Rosewill Blackbone Black Steel / Plastic ATX Mi... 
MouseAudio
Rosewill RM-M5U Black 3 Buttons 1 x Wheel USB On Board 
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