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post #51 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Most of the problem isn't the same as those were, there was instability on release but with 8 it's more due to features, short of MS removing and fixing them in SP1...You get my point.

I fully appreciate that. smile.gif

My point was in regards to the Vista hate, the blind patriotism to XP and the fact people apply the 'try one generation, skip the next one' logic.

I also appreciate that Metro will not be to everyone's tastes. It isn't to my tastes either, however after using W8 I have used the Metro GUI 2-3 times since I'm capable of operating everything from my desktop. If people actually tried Windows 8 they would realise that they don't need to use Metro as much as they think they do, most people are just spewing uneducated, regurgitated hate (luckily none in this thread yet) about how Metro sucks and how it's a deal breaker, without actually trying Windows 8 for themselves.
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post #52 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post

Why are you trying to even do that? That folder is not for you. Lol.

This actually cracked me up quite a bit. But yea, I was using the windowsapps as an example. It's not the first one I've run into, just one I could remember off the top of my head.
Quote:
I also appreciate that Metro will not be to everyone's tastes. It isn't to my tastes either, however after using W8 I have used the Metro GUI 2-3 times since I'm capable of operating everything from my desktop. If people actually tried Windows 8 they would realise that they don't need to use Metro as much as they think they do, most people are just spewing uneducated, regurgitated hate (luckily none in this thread yet) about how Metro sucks and how it's a deal breaker, without actually trying Windows 8 for themselves.

Ok but again, if you could magically remove the metroUI, and all the problems that come with it, you know what you have? 7.1
Edited by un-midas touch - 10/24/12 at 2:28am
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post #53 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

This actually cracked me up quite a bit. But yea, I was using the windowsapps as an example. It's not the first one I've run into, just one I could remember off the top of my head.

Right. The directories are locked down for a reason - of course you have to jump through hoops to gain access.... smile.gif

That's not to say I haven't done it plenty of times already. I just don't see it as a drawback.
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post #54 of 233
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

You have to be joking. I go to the Program Files folder all the time. Do you happen to have Steam ? Steam alone requires you to go to their folder in order to do many things, including troubleshooting (deleting everything except for the Steamapps folder and Steam.exe), or to do something as simple as make a backup of the screenshots you took during games.

I was referring to the apps folder (for Store apps) - not the whole of program files. I probably glanced at the screenshot wrong.

Any program that stores data in its program files directory is wrong.

That may be, but what about the Documents and Settings folder ? It's hidden! You have to uncheck the box that says "Hide protected operating system files (Recommended)", and then when I click on it, it says "Access denied".

Problem is, contained in a sub-folder inside that folder is the Outlook.pst file, which contains all your e-mails. I can back it up by using Outlook's backup feature but all it ends up doing is recreating the whole file all over again and it takes ages if you have a big file, whereas by going to the folder itself you just have to copy it somewhere else.

Funny thing is I know the full path to the folder and when I copy paste it into the location bar it opens with no problem. So, not only is Microsoft storing a non operating system file inside that folder, it isn't even protecting it properly. I can understand it's not meant to be protected, but then why put it into that folder to which you must know the exact location in order to access it ? A mess. And this is with Windows 7.
Edited by tpi2007 - 10/24/12 at 2:39am
 
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post #55 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post

Right. The directories are locked down for a reason - of course you have to jump through hoops to gain access.... smile.gif
That's not to say I haven't done it plenty of times already. I just don't see it as a drawback.

It will be a drawback when an app saves something in a place that I can't get it with something else.

Plus, the "error" plainly stated that objects were still out of my control within the folder.
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post #56 of 233
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Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

Ok but again, if you could magically remove the metroUI, and all the problems that come with it, you know what you have? 7.1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Microsoft have priced it as such.
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post #57 of 233
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Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

That may be, but what about the Documents and Settings folder ? It's hidden! You have to uncheck the box that says "Hide protected operating system files (Recommended)", and then when I click on it, it says "Access denied".
Problem is, contained in a sub-folder inside that folder is the Outlook.pst file, which contains all your e-mails. I can back it up by using Outlook's backup feature but all it ends up doing is recreating the whole file all over again and it takes ages if you have a big file, whereas by going to the folder itself you just have to copy it somewhere else.
Funny thing is I know the full path to the folder and when I copy paste it into the location bar it open it up with no problem. So, not only is Microsoft storing a non operating system file inside that folder, it isn't even protecting it properly. A mess. And this is with Windows 7.

Documents and Settings is a symbolic link for compatibility. Its linked somewhere in AppData smile.gif
You're only prevented access to following the link - if you copy and paste the path, NTFS resolves it to %AppData%\where\ever\the\hell\outlook\puts\PST.files and Explorer goes "hey thanks!"

There's no protection going on for this "folder". Documents and Settings was from the old XP days and left around for programs that hard code paths because the user data directory structure changed in NT 6 with Vista. Use AppData - its the same thing and there is no protection on it.

Just to add to that:

C:\Documents and Settings is a symbolic link to the folder C:\Users
C:\Documents and Settings\All Users is a symbolic link to the folder C:\ProgramData.

Actually they might be reparse/junction points. Either way, the same principle applies smile.gif

Both are for app compatibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

It will be a drawback when an app saves something in a place that I can't get it with something else.
Plus, the "error" plainly stated that objects were still out of my control within the folder.

Yes I know, I wish apps would behave. Unless an app elevates or you run without UAC, it won't be able to write there in the first place, so... hmmm.
And yes its still out of your control because its not for you to control. Technically. Actually, its not for other programs to control (to make it sound less personal smile.gif) - its just a side effect that the user can't control it either.
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post #58 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedEarth View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Microsoft have priced it as such.

You're right. I was just alluding to the statement you made about how it's barely necessary.
Quote:
And yes its still out of your control because its not for you to control. Technically. Actually, its not for other programs to control (to make it sound less personal smile.gif) - its just a side effect that the user can't control it either.

I understand this is a lesser evil of the world of easy-access networks and malicious code. But another difference from OSX (a system you will not see me propping often) is that it's made by Microsoft, a company notorious for forcing customers to deal with errors and corrupted builds of God only knows how many software releases, and when they are the only other option for dealing with an issue that I can't, I have a problem.

edit:
Quote:
Yes I know, I wish apps would behave. Unless an app elevates or you run without UAC, it won't be able to write there in the first place, so... hmmm.

Actually, there are lots of different sets of access credentials that are used by different types of software. Each is given access based on the scope of it's application and hopefully no farther than that (ideally). There's at least 10 different ones for signed apps. And I assume that I'm not a signed app. Or maybe you just mean app as program. When I say app I'm referring to the extra special super deluxe Microsoft exclusive Metro app.
Edited by un-midas touch - 10/24/12 at 3:06am
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post #59 of 233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post

Documents and Settings is a symbolic link for compatibility. Its linked somewhere in AppData smile.gif
You're only prevented access to following the link - if you copy and paste the path, NTFS resolves it to %AppData%\where\ever\the\hell\outlook\puts\PST.files and Explorer goes "hey thanks!"

There's no protection going on for this "folder". Documents and Settings was from the old XP days and left around for programs that hard code paths because the user data directory structure changed in NT 6 with Vista. Use AppData - its the same thing and there is no protection on it.

Rep+

I just went there, and in fact, it's like you say. But why on earth doesn't Windows tell me it just redirected me ? The path on the location bar does not change. This is not straightforward at all.

Oh, but of course Appdata is a hidden folder. Again, Microsoft not making things easy. Luckily I have hidden files, folders and drives showing.

Edit: just a question: if it is just there for compatibility, why does Outlook 2007 use it and why is the folder protected in the first place ?
Edited by tpi2007 - 10/24/12 at 2:50am
 
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post #60 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Rep+
I just went there, and in fact, it's like you say. But why on earth doesn't Windows tell me it just redirected me ? The path on the location bar does not change. This is not straightforward at all.
Oh, but of course Appdata is a hidden folder. Again, Microsoft not making things easy. Luckily I have hidden files, folders and drives showing.
Edit: just a question: if it is just there for compatibility, why does Outlook 2007 use it and why is the folder protected in the first place ?

Its not a redirect - its a reparse point. Explorer doesn't know better - it calls down to NTFS and says "take me to C:\Documents and Settings" and NTFS silently translates the path into "C:\Users".
Yes AppData is a hidden folder. Because you're not supposed to be messing around in there (we're different of course, we know what we're doing!) - but us type of users are the minority unfortunately. Microsoft cannot cater for everyone so they take the safer path and hide it.

Outlook doesn't use it explicitly. It uses AppData. Documents and Settings is a symbolic link. It points to the same location on disk. Whatever shows up in AppData shows up if you navigate the same path but stick Documents and Settings in front. You'll notice that there are other links called "Local Settings", "Application Data" inside there - these are for compatibility too and link to directories inside AppData (Local, and LocalLow). I may have gotten that mixed up 'cause there is "Roaming" too, but its all the same point.
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Phanteks PH-TC14PE with TY-140's Lamptron FCv5 (x2) Windows 8 Pro 64-bit Dell U2412M 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Dell U2412M Dell U2212HM Dell U2713HM Topre Realforce 87UB | Ducky DK9087 G2 Pro 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Corsair AX-750 Corsair Obsidian 650D Logitech G700 XTRAC Ripper XXL 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Beyerdynamic DT-770 Pro 250ohm Schiit Bifrost DAC Schiit Asgard 2 HiVi Swan M50W 2.1 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Intel Xeon E5-2620 Super Micro X9SRL-F-B 128GB 1333MHz LSI 9271-8i 
OSPowerCase
VMware ESXi 5.5 SeaSonic SS-400FL2 Fractal Define R3 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-3437U HP EliteBook Folio 9470m  Intel HD Graphics 4000  16GB DDR3 SDRAM 
Hard DriveOS
256GB SSD Windows 10 Insider Preview 
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Ol' Sandy
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Intel Xeon E3-1230v3 Gigabyte GA-Z97X-UD5H-BK MSI Gaming GTX 980 Kingston 32GB (4x8) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Plextor PX-256M5S 256GB Samsung EVO 1TB Hitachi HDS721010CLA332 Hitachi HDS723020BLA642 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Hitachi HDS723020BLA642 Hitachi HUA722010CLA330 WDC WD10EARS-00Z5B1 TSSTcorp CDDVDW SH-S223B 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Phanteks PH-TC14PE with TY-140's Lamptron FCv5 (x2) Windows 8 Pro 64-bit Dell U2412M 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Dell U2412M Dell U2212HM Dell U2713HM Topre Realforce 87UB | Ducky DK9087 G2 Pro 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Corsair AX-750 Corsair Obsidian 650D Logitech G700 XTRAC Ripper XXL 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Beyerdynamic DT-770 Pro 250ohm Schiit Bifrost DAC Schiit Asgard 2 HiVi Swan M50W 2.1 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Intel Xeon E5-2620 Super Micro X9SRL-F-B 128GB 1333MHz LSI 9271-8i 
OSPowerCase
VMware ESXi 5.5 SeaSonic SS-400FL2 Fractal Define R3 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-3437U HP EliteBook Folio 9470m  Intel HD Graphics 4000  16GB DDR3 SDRAM 
Hard DriveOS
256GB SSD Windows 10 Insider Preview 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Software News › [DailyTech] Windows 8 Early Adoption is Well Behind Pace Set by Windows 7