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[DailyTech] Windows 8 Early Adoption is Well Behind Pace Set by Windows 7 - Page 7

post #61 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

Looks like I'm gonna have to share it again. Warnings about the Windows 8 UAC by RagingCain.
edit: Just read it, then decide for yourself.

WOW, and I was mad about Gatekeeper...Same old MS new decade..
 
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post #62 of 233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Rep+
I just went there, and in fact, it's like you say. But why on earth doesn't Windows tell me it just redirected me ? The path on the location bar does not change. This is not straightforward at all.
Oh, but of course Appdata is a hidden folder. Again, Microsoft not making things easy. Luckily I have hidden files, folders and drives showing.
Edit: just a question: if it is just there for compatibility, why does Outlook 2007 use it and why is the folder protected in the first place ?

Its not a redirect - its a reparse point. Explorer doesn't know better - it calls down to NTFS and says "take me to C:\Documents and Settings" and NTFS silently translates the path into "C:\Users".
Yes AppData is a hidden folder. Because you're not supposed to be messing around in there (we're different of course, we know what we're doing!) - but us type of users are the minority unfortunately. Microsoft cannot cater for everyone so they take the safer path and hide it.

Outlook doesn't use it explicitly. It uses AppData. Documents and Settings is a symbolic link. It points to the same location on disk. Whatever shows up in AppData shows up if you navigate the same path but stick Documents and Settings in front. You'll notice that there are other links called "Local Settings", "Application Data" inside there - these are for compatibility too and link to directories inside AppData (Local, and LocalLow). I may have gotten that mixed up 'cause there is "Roaming" too, but its all the same point.

Oh, I see, so it symbolically duplicates everything just in case, for compatibility reasons (some other application that wants to interact with a newer application and uses the old way of doing things, for example).

As to the way NTFS works, it could use an update, it should inform Explorer the real path it's giving it. Otherwise the user is misled. I hope this can't be exploited maliciously.
 
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post #63 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Oh, I see, so it symbolically duplicates everything just in case, for compatibility reasons (some other application that wants to interact with a newer application and uses the old way of doing things, for example.)
As to the way NTFS works, it could use an update, it should inform Explorer the real path it's giving it. Otherwise the user is misled. I hope this can't be exploited maliciously.

That's right. Applications should be calling SHGetKnownFolderPath (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb762188%28v=vs.85%29.aspx) to get the location of these folders, BUT some hard code the paths in because programmers are lazy, and so Microsoft had to add the reparse points when going from XP to Vista so that programs that misbehaved would still function.

Actually Explorer *can* know that it is following a symbolic link. Its just that it doesn't care enough to find out. The user typed in the path to documents and settings, that's the path that should show up in the address bar. Doing it the opposite way would be worse because its inconsistent and would easily confuse users. The user is not being misled. They are seeing the same files and folders whichever path they use. That's the whole point of a symbolic link/reparse point.

There's also no security flaw at all. Anyone asking for the location gets the same physical bytes from the disk - no matter how they ask for it. What exploits were you thinking of?

Also, you can see the known folder IDs here:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd378457%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

It also shows the "legacy" path that is symlinked for compatibility smile.gif
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post #64 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post

Documents and Settings is a symbolic link for compatibility. Its linked somewhere in AppData smile.gif
You're only prevented access to following the link - if you copy and paste the path, NTFS resolves it to %AppData%\where\ever\the\hell\outlook\puts\PST.files and Explorer goes "hey thanks!"
There's no protection going on for this "folder". Documents and Settings was from the old XP days and left around for programs that hard code paths because the user data directory structure changed in NT 6 with Vista. Use AppData - its the same thing and there is no protection on it.
Just to add to that:
C:\Documents and Settings is a symbolic link to the folder C:\Users
C:\Documents and Settings\All Users is a symbolic link to the folder C:\ProgramData.
Actually they might be reparse/junction points. Either way, the same principle applies smile.gif
Both are for app compatibility.
Yes I know, I wish apps would behave. Unless an app elevates or you run without UAC, it won't be able to write there in the first place, so... hmmm.
And yes its still out of your control because its not for you to control. Technically. Actually, its not for other programs to control (to make it sound less personal smile.gif) - its just a side effect that the user can't control it either.

I would also like to point out that Windows 7 does the exact same thing. This isn't something specific to Windows 8, and I believe Vista is the same as well.

Also, the Windowsapps folder is the only folder I have encountered thus far where clicking continue to gain permanent access to the folder didn't work. Every other folder (i.e. Program Files, Windows, etc) worked as normal.
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post #65 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

I would also like to point out that Windows 7 does the exact same thing. This isn't something specific to Windows 8, and I believe Vista is the same as well.
Also, the Windowsapps folder is the only folder I have encountered thus far where clicking continue to gain permanent access to the folder didn't work. Every other folder (i.e. Program Files, Windows, etc) worked as normal.

I believe I mentioned that the change occurred in Vista thumb.gif
And yes that's right, the other folders are much more lenient. The WindowsApps is severely protected.
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post #66 of 233
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post

That's right. Applications should be calling SHGetKnownFolderPath (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb762188%28v=vs.85%29.aspx) to get the location of these folders, BUT some hard code the paths in because programmers are lazy, and so Microsoft had to add the reparse points when going from XP to Vista so that programs that misbehaved would still function.

Actually Explorer *can* know that it is following a symbolic link. Its just that it doesn't care enough to find out. The user typed in the path to documents and settings, that's the path that should show up in the address bar. Doing it the opposite way would be worse because its inconsistent and would easily confuse users.

There's also no security flaw at all. Anyone asking for the location gets the same physical bytes from the disk - no matter how they ask for it. What exploits were you thinking of?

Also, you can see the known folder IDs here:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd378457%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

It also shows the "legacy" path that is symlinked for compatibility smile.gif

Well, imagine if a virus looks for exact copies of a file on your hdd's and then decides to delete one of those copies and instead makes a reparse point, leading you to believe that you still have two copies of the same file (one for backup, in case the other one gets corrupted). If one day you decide to delete one of the copies, believing you still have the other, but you don't, you may find out about it too late.
Edited by tpi2007 - 10/24/12 at 1:20pm
 
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post #67 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Well, imagine if a virus looks for exact copies of a file on your hdd's and then decides to delete on of those copies and instead makes a reparse point, leading you to believe that you still have two copies of the same file (one for backup, in case the other one gets corrupted). If one day you decide to delete one of the copies, believing you still have the other, but you don't, you may find out about it too late.

In theory that would be possible. However it is not practical because it has no benefit to the virus creator. This also means the same "exploit" would be possible on every *nix system, too. On Windows, symbolic links require administrative rights to be created, too. So unless you run with full administrative rights, turn off UAC (I actually do this myself LOL), or click "Allow" on every single UAC prompt, this "exploit" is pretty much accounted for on Windows smile.gif
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post #68 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Also, the Windowsapps folder is the only folder I have encountered thus far where clicking continue to gain permanent access to the folder didn't work. Every other folder (i.e. Program Files, Windows, etc) worked as normal.

I dunno, maybe it was back when I didn't know how to get +1lvl admin. But this goes back to the DRM thing we were talking about earlier. I hate DRMs. What if the whole of the system were a DRM? The thought of Microsoft heading in this direction is just chilling.
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post #69 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

I dunno, maybe it was back when I didn't know how to get +1lvl admin. But this goes back to the DRM thing we were talking about earlier. I hate DRMs. What if the whole of the system were a DRM? The thought of Microsoft heading in this direction is just chilling.

Microsoft is locking these directories down for your own security. They learned this the hard way when this was not done in NT 5.1 and earlier - it was a free for all. If you can even call this "DRM", its only going to benefit you, the user. Or maybe not you. But it will benefit John down the road who doesn't even know what an operating system is smile.gif
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Ol' Sandy
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post #70 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

I dunno, maybe it was back when I didn't know how to get +1lvl admin. But this goes back to the DRM thing we were talking about earlier. I hate DRMs. What if the whole of the system were a DRM? The thought of Microsoft heading in this direction is just chilling.

Since applications going through the Marketplace relies on Microsoft to keep it secure and prevent pirating, it makes sense for Microsoft to implement these measures. Our preliminary exploring seems to point in the direction of that all these new security stuff has to do with preventing tampering with the Marketplace apps. I highly doubt it's a DRM in the sense that it would require that the apps have online access in order to run. It will most likely be similar to Steam, as long as the proper user is logged in, they can use the apps. Although there are some limited instances in which this interfered with regular desktop programs. Wonder if that was intentional or just a bug...
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Millenium Falcon
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