Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [VRZ] Nvidia's Green Light Program Overclocking Limitations - Origins and Implications
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[VRZ] Nvidia's Green Light Program Overclocking Limitations - Origins and Implications

post #1 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Recently, a new controversy appeared in the high emotional world of performance graphics cards. EVGA has just announced that they will no longer support EVBot overvoltage tool for their highest end cards. We dug up and found the reason why - to meet the Green Light program. We investigate the origins of the program and some of its implications.

The AIC Side of things

"When we started manufacturing AMD boards, Nvidia told us that they will cut our allocation and they did. But they were too dependent on us and came back humbled offering us level playing field. However, good part of our GF110 chips was directed to EVGA, especially in Q4 2011 and Q1 2012. Fourth quarter really hurt us. Nvidia doesn’t think AMD is their competitor anymore and with Teslas they're no longer dependent on us."

All of this, combined with the fact that special boards like EVGA Classified, ASUS DC2-4GD5, MSI Lightning all had to have their voltage mods removed only goes to show that there is a limited number of dies available, and that Nvidia probably does not want to share more than they have to.


Nvidia's side

Reducing RMAs has never been a focus of Green Light.

We support overvoltaging up to a limit on our products, but have a maximum reliability spec that is intended to protect the life of the product. We don’t want to see customers disappointed when their card dies in a year or two because the voltage was raised too high.

Regarding overvoltaging above our max spec, we offer AICs two choices:

· Ensure the GPU stays within our operating specs and have a full warranty from NVIDIA.

· Allow the GPU to be manually operated outside specs in which case NVIDIA provides no warranty.

We prefer AICs ensure the GPU stays within spec and encourage this through warranty support, but it’s ultimately up to the AIC what they want to do. Their choice does not affect allocation. And this has no bearing on the end user warranty provided by the AIC. It is simply a warranty between NVIDIA and the AIC.

Source

Please read the whole article before commenting, I've tried to pick the important parts for the quote but the whole article is filled with important stuff and is just a good read.
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
  hide details  
Reply
post #2 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Source
Please read the whole article before commenting, I've tried to pick the important parts for the quote but the whole article is filled with important stuff and is just a good read.

It should be titled:

Nvidia fails due to arrogance.

When I was w/AW, I remember Nvidia CONSTANTLY telling us that there were no driver limitations, etc...Even when the code was disected and slammed in their face, the policy was deny deny deny.

Now, it's become standard and it's okay because AMD aren't competitors...Yet, every vendor on the market is suggesting AMD cards to enthusiasts...Go figure.
post #3 of 182
They probably just want their next gpu to have a higher percentage increase in performance compared to last generations. Not sure why they did that as it only hurts those who overclock, but if all the high end products are being bought, they are enthusiasts who try overclock anyways
Budget Rig V2
(10 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen R7 1700 @ 3900 Asus AB350M Pro4 EVGA GTX 1080 TI SC2 Hybrid TridentZ RGB 3200-cl14 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
MyDigitalSSD BPX EVGA CLC 280mm Windows 10 Pro Benq PD3200U 
PowerCase
Seasonic Platinum 660 Fractal Design Mini C 
  hide details  
Reply
Budget Rig V2
(10 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen R7 1700 @ 3900 Asus AB350M Pro4 EVGA GTX 1080 TI SC2 Hybrid TridentZ RGB 3200-cl14 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
MyDigitalSSD BPX EVGA CLC 280mm Windows 10 Pro Benq PD3200U 
PowerCase
Seasonic Platinum 660 Fractal Design Mini C 
  hide details  
Reply
post #4 of 182
Quote:
We prefer AICs ensure the GPU stays within spec and encourage this through warranty support, but it’s ultimately up to the AIC what they want to do. Their choice does not affect allocation. And this has no bearing on the end user warranty provided by the AIC. It is simply a warranty between NVIDIA and the AIC.

With Green Light, we don’t really go out of the way to look for ways that AICs enable manual OV. As I stated, this isn’t the core purpose of the program. Yes, you’ve seen some cases of boards getting out into the market with OV features only to have them disabled later. This is due to the fact that AICs decided later that they would prefer to have a warranty. This is simply a choice the AICs each need to make for themselves. How, or when they make this decision, is entirely up to them.

Read more: http://vr-zone.com/articles/nvidia-s-green-light-program-overclocking-limitations--origins-and-implications/17318.html#ixzz2ADmPyVVV

That's actually a bold face lie...Especially considering they threaten/threatened vendors that "failed" to adhere to the new standard.

They also removed the EVbot without actually telling EVGA...The customers were the ones to alert EVGA originally to the problem...That's kind of sad that, Nvidia can't even make a phone call to tell EVGA that they virtually just rendered an entire line of cards, worthless.
post #5 of 182
Regardless how Nvidia wants to present this, there are a few things that don't add up correctly.

The GTX 500 series allowed overvolting through software and through things like the EVbot plug. (FACT)
The GTX 500 series could be overclocked and overvolted to the nines and yet there weren't excessive failures among that lineup. (FACT)
The GTX 600 series cannot be overvolted and the overclocking is there, but not game changing. (FACT)
Something must have changed in the card's construction OR Nvidia's mindset in order for this change to have been made. (ASSUMPTION)

Things that could have changed:
1. Kepler is more sensitive to voltage changes. Nvidia may know something we don't about voltages. More volts over a few months may damage Kepler
. 1a. Higher voltages may cause more premature card failures
. 1b. This would cause more RMA's and thus more expense for Nvidia
2. TSMC's 28nm process may be having yield issues. In other words, Nvidia's Kepler's rolling off that assembly line are just barely meeting QC standards at stock volts, so Nvidia knows that pushing them in the power area might blow them up.
3. Nothing has changed at all as far as chip durability or TSMC's yield quality. This would suggest three things as to why Nvidia has locked the voltage
. 3a. Nvidia wants to reduce the number of failed chips. Fermi's were known to handle a decent voltage bump if they could be kept cool enough, but their failue rate was, from what I've been able to find, quite low. If this has not changed, Nvidia wants to save some $$$ in RMA dollars.
. 3b. Nvidia wants to make the next generation chips a really big improvement. An overclocked and overvolted GTX 480 could hang with a GTX 580 at stock, which gave many GTX 400 series users no reason to upgrade and thus less $$$ for Nvidia. By locking down the overclocking potential, we aren't able to stretch the current generation as much.
. 3c. A combination of both. Nvidia wants to make more money on the front end by not having to replace as many cards and also making it more enticing to upgrade when a new generation comes out.


If #1 or #2 is true, then Nvidia gets a pass, but they should explain this to the consumer. We really would like to not hate Nvidia, but we need to know this sort of thing to MAKE that determination.

If it's #3, (as I suspect) then Nvidia should rightly so be condemned for squeezing yet more cash out of the consumer. They make the product so they ARE allowed to do what they want with it, but we get to vote with our wallets and may choose to give business to a competitor as a result.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Heisenberg
(10 items)
 
Redemption
(18 items)
 
 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Intel Core 2 Extreme @ 2.8GHz (upgrade) Intel GMA 950 2 x 2 DDR2 667MHz (upgrade) 120GB Mushkin ECO2 
Optical DriveOSMonitorPower
Replaced with 42 W/hr aux battery Mint 17.3 1280x800 Dell 65w Dell Adapter 
CaseOther
Latitude D630 Chassis Intel 7260-802.11ac 2x2 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Not telling AsRock something Pixel Pusher 2 x 8 GB AMD Radeon RAM @ 1600mhz (All the VM's) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Crucial M4 128GB (8 second boot) Western Digital RE4 1TB Western Digital RE4 2TB Pioneer Blu-Ray Reader/Writer 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo Windows 8.1 Pro x64 Dell U2713HM IBM Model M (CLICKY!!) 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Antec HCG-900 NZXT Source 210 (it was cheap) Logitech G502 Schiit Modi 
AudioAudio
Sennheiser HD 598 M-Audio AV40's 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-4200U Microsoft BGA1168 Intel HD 4400 8 GB LPDDR3 Dual Channel @ 1600mhz 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
SK Hynix 256GB SSD Windows 8.1 Professional 1920 x 1080p IPS Display Microsoft Touch Cover 2 
Power
48w PSU 
  hide details  
Reply
Heisenberg
(10 items)
 
Redemption
(18 items)
 
 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Intel Core 2 Extreme @ 2.8GHz (upgrade) Intel GMA 950 2 x 2 DDR2 667MHz (upgrade) 120GB Mushkin ECO2 
Optical DriveOSMonitorPower
Replaced with 42 W/hr aux battery Mint 17.3 1280x800 Dell 65w Dell Adapter 
CaseOther
Latitude D630 Chassis Intel 7260-802.11ac 2x2 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Not telling AsRock something Pixel Pusher 2 x 8 GB AMD Radeon RAM @ 1600mhz (All the VM's) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Crucial M4 128GB (8 second boot) Western Digital RE4 1TB Western Digital RE4 2TB Pioneer Blu-Ray Reader/Writer 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo Windows 8.1 Pro x64 Dell U2713HM IBM Model M (CLICKY!!) 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Antec HCG-900 NZXT Source 210 (it was cheap) Logitech G502 Schiit Modi 
AudioAudio
Sennheiser HD 598 M-Audio AV40's 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-4200U Microsoft BGA1168 Intel HD 4400 8 GB LPDDR3 Dual Channel @ 1600mhz 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
SK Hynix 256GB SSD Windows 8.1 Professional 1920 x 1080p IPS Display Microsoft Touch Cover 2 
Power
48w PSU 
  hide details  
Reply
post #6 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmark2 View Post

Regardless how Nvidia wants to present this, there are a few things that don't add up correctly.
The GTX 500 series allowed overvolting through software and through things like the EVbot plug. (FACT)
The GTX 500 series could be overclocked and overvolted to the nines and yet there weren't excessive failures among that lineup. (FACT)

Not entirely accurate, FYI.

The 590's had excessive failures due to manufacturing errors (revision 1) which were later "fixed" but, by then the cards were completely driver locked...

The 580's were voltage locked as well but, only on stock versions, on the SC/SSC/FTW/Classified etc (same with MSI/Asus etc) there were scaling locks but, the OCP still existed.

Any 590 user will tell you that the locks were in place immediately following the release of the card...And in fact, as I stated earlier, Nvidia's stance for 6+ months was 'deny deny deny'...Only in Sept/Oct did they actually come out and admit they were voltage locking the line.

So, this practice has actually been in effect since the 5-series...Arguably early Fermi.
post #7 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

That's actually a bold face lie...Especially considering they threaten/threatened vendors that "failed" to adhere to the new standard.
They also removed the EVbot without actually telling EVGA...The customers were the ones to alert EVGA originally to the problem...That's kind of sad that, Nvidia can't even make a phone call to tell EVGA that they virtually just rendered an entire line of cards, worthless.

Source? As far as I know, EVGA removed it because it would invalidate the warranty. Evga could keep it on if they wanted to swallow the cost of the RMAs
Main Rig
(13 items)
 
Secondary Rig
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 3770k MSI Z77A-GD65 Gigabyte 780 OC Gigabyte 780 OC 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Ripjaw  Samsung F3  Samsung 830  Asus CD-Rom 
CoolingMonitorMonitorPower
Cooler master hyper 212+  Asus  27in 1440p Auria EQ276W 760 Watt Silencer 
Case
Haf 912 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 3770k ASRock Z77 Pro4-M 290 XFX DD R9 280X Gigabyte 
GraphicsGraphicsRAMHard Drive
R9 280X MSI Gaming R9 280X Power Cooler Crucial Ballistix  Samsung 830 series 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
WD Black Asus 24x Windows 7 Asus 24in  
MonitorPowerCase
27in 1440p Auria CM 750 600T 
  hide details  
Reply
Main Rig
(13 items)
 
Secondary Rig
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 3770k MSI Z77A-GD65 Gigabyte 780 OC Gigabyte 780 OC 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Ripjaw  Samsung F3  Samsung 830  Asus CD-Rom 
CoolingMonitorMonitorPower
Cooler master hyper 212+  Asus  27in 1440p Auria EQ276W 760 Watt Silencer 
Case
Haf 912 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 3770k ASRock Z77 Pro4-M 290 XFX DD R9 280X Gigabyte 
GraphicsGraphicsRAMHard Drive
R9 280X MSI Gaming R9 280X Power Cooler Crucial Ballistix  Samsung 830 series 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
WD Black Asus 24x Windows 7 Asus 24in  
MonitorPowerCase
27in 1440p Auria CM 750 600T 
  hide details  
Reply
post #8 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrossewacker View Post

Source? As far as I know, EVGA removed it because it would invalidate the warranty. Evga could keep it on if they wanted to swallow the cost of the RMAs

Read the EVGA forums, much?

http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=1755509

A CUSTOMER had to inform them that Nvidia removed the plug so, your information is entirely incorrect.

Only after Jacob + Several other employees of EVGA contacted Nvidia, did they get an official answer. (Several hours later)

Again, #Nvidiafail
post #9 of 182
This type of thing is why I've always disliked nV. A company that uses underhanded tactics to edge out against it's competition tends to eventually use those types of tactics to take advantage of their own customers.
There's absolutely no excuse for taking away voltage control while you have customers who paid premiums for cards that were made for voltage tweaking. The decision to force their sudden new standard for reliability in spite of knowing this is just disrespectful. It would be bad enough to make this choice for 7xx and on, but to remove features on cards they've already sold is horrendous. How can people buy nV cards with confidence when they know something like this can happen anytime?
I was strongly considering trying nV again until this happened.
Trash Box
(15 items)
 
 
G73JH-A1
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 980x @ 4.4GHz Asus P6X58D-E Gigabyte 8GB GTX 1070 G1 Gaming 24GB Corsair Dominators 1600MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveMonitorKeyboard
2x256GB C300's R0 1TB Samsung 850 Pro ASUS MG279Q, Catleap Q270 G19 
PowerCaseMouse
Corsair AX1200 Silverstone RV-02 G9x 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD 965BE 125W Asus M4A77D Asus 5770 Cucore 4GB Kingston 800MHz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSKeyboard
2x750GB Seagates 22x LG DVD-RW w7 Ultimate 64-bit  G15 
PowerCase
Antec Earthwatts 430W 80+ Antec New Solution NSK6580B 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
720QM AsusTek Mobility HD5870 8GB Kingston 1600MHz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
256GB C300/500GB Seagate Bluray Combo w7 Ultimate 64-bit 17'' 1080P 
Case
G73JH-A1 
  hide details  
Reply
Trash Box
(15 items)
 
 
G73JH-A1
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 980x @ 4.4GHz Asus P6X58D-E Gigabyte 8GB GTX 1070 G1 Gaming 24GB Corsair Dominators 1600MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveMonitorKeyboard
2x256GB C300's R0 1TB Samsung 850 Pro ASUS MG279Q, Catleap Q270 G19 
PowerCaseMouse
Corsair AX1200 Silverstone RV-02 G9x 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD 965BE 125W Asus M4A77D Asus 5770 Cucore 4GB Kingston 800MHz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSKeyboard
2x750GB Seagates 22x LG DVD-RW w7 Ultimate 64-bit  G15 
PowerCase
Antec Earthwatts 430W 80+ Antec New Solution NSK6580B 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
720QM AsusTek Mobility HD5870 8GB Kingston 1600MHz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
256GB C300/500GB Seagate Bluray Combo w7 Ultimate 64-bit 17'' 1080P 
Case
G73JH-A1 
  hide details  
Reply
post #10 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Read the EVGA forums, much?
http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=1755509
A CUSTOMER had to inform them that Nvidia removed the plug so, your information is entirely incorrect.
Only after Jacob + Several other employees of EVGA contacted Nvidia, did they get an official answer. (Several hours later)
Again, #Nvidiafail

Ammm, could you please clarify how NVIDIA removed the plug? Are you saying that AIC's send their desigs to NVIDIA which then, ships everything to the AIC? I thought that NVIDIA licensed the designs and sold the die's but the rest of the process was handled by different companies?
My System
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i5 2500k MSI P67 GD65 GTX460 1GB GTX460 1GB 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
G. Skill Ripjaws Crucial C300 Prolimatech Megahalems + 2 x GT AP15 Win 7 x64 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Dell U2311H Noppoo Choc mini Corsair HX620 Microcool Banchetto rev. 2.0 black aluminium 
MouseMouse PadAudio
Zowie EC1 Zowie Fiio E7 + E9 / Sennheiser HD 25 1 II 
  hide details  
Reply
My System
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i5 2500k MSI P67 GD65 GTX460 1GB GTX460 1GB 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
G. Skill Ripjaws Crucial C300 Prolimatech Megahalems + 2 x GT AP15 Win 7 x64 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Dell U2311H Noppoo Choc mini Corsair HX620 Microcool Banchetto rev. 2.0 black aluminium 
MouseMouse PadAudio
Zowie EC1 Zowie Fiio E7 + E9 / Sennheiser HD 25 1 II 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Hardware News
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [VRZ] Nvidia's Green Light Program Overclocking Limitations - Origins and Implications