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[VRZ] Nvidia's Green Light Program Overclocking Limitations - Origins and Implications - Page 15

post #141 of 182
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Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

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Originally Posted by Domino View Post

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Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

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Originally Posted by Domino View Post

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Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

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Originally Posted by Domino View Post

Voltage is typically not a problem, but the heat. But given how poor nvidia's VRMs have been over the past couple generations, I'm not surprised. They have been skimping on quality design for quite some time now.

They just dont want to overbuild them to handle high voltages.

No, what they do is that their engineers are told that they want to build the best they can with the least cost possible, so they skimped on VRM design. So they design the chips to handle a voltage set for. It's shoddy engineering work; making it just reach the minimal spec. It's actually quite against our ethics training. We aren't suppose to but typically, we always end up with what is requested. It's obvious that nvidia doesn't care, they will skimp on anything they can just to save a few cents.

At least AMD have better standards.

And overbuilding benefits us anyway, it increases card life-time..Why do you think most modern good brand PSUs can put out more wattage than they're rated for?

What are you even talking about? You just went to the complete opposite spectrum in your argument. Nvidia cuts corners, engineers don't like that. The card doesn't live longer because of crappy-skimped VRM design and by no means can you call that quality.

What? I was saying that quality designs are beneficial to everyone as they make cards last longer/better, that's why a quality PSU can do well over its rated wattage.

Nvidia can't, which you were previously defending.
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post #142 of 182
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Originally Posted by jtom320 View Post

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Originally Posted by Domino View Post

I'm an engineering student in Electrical Engineering; along side our ethical courses, we hear about this all the time, and the countless (the good ones anyways) engineers that switch jobs whenever they are told to do crap like this. Although I'm switching into Mechancial, call it an educated, and experience, opinion.
And since when do we have biased moderators? Isn't it your job to be moderate? The fanboy comment is unacceptable as well.


Not agreeing with something you said doesn't equal bias.

No, he was calling fanboyism and whatnot.
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post #143 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

No, he was calling fanboyism and whatnot.

Baloney.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1319516/vrz-nvidias-green-light-program-overclocking-limitations-origins-and-implications/120#post_18571886

Rolling my eyes at your comment NVidia telling engineered to put low quality parts in thier GPU's. Sorry but if rolling eyes to statements is calling some one was more disbelief you said that. No more no less.

Then I supporterd my debate with why I thought that based on my experience and observation. You got waaaaayyy defense bud. Stop crying foul and move foward.

You responded insulting me calling me out. Lets take this now to PM's if you'd further like to discuss it further to not derail the thread.
 
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post #144 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

Voltage is typically not a problem, but the heat. But given how poor nvidia's VRMs have been over the past couple generations, I'm not surprised. They have been skimping on quality design for quite some time now.

They just dont want to overbuild them to handle high voltages.

No, what they do is that their engineers are told that they want to build the best they can with the least cost possible, so they skimped on VRM design. So they design the chips to handle a voltage set for. It's shoddy engineering work; making it just reach the minimal spec. It's actually quite against our ethics training. We aren't suppose to but typically, we always end up with what is requested. It's obvious that nvidia doesn't care, they will skimp on anything they can just to save a few cents.

At least AMD have better standards.

And overbuilding benefits us anyway, it increases card life-time..Why do you think most modern good brand PSUs can put out more wattage than they're rated for?

What are you even talking about? You just went to the complete opposite spectrum in your argument. Nvidia cuts corners, engineers don't like that. The card doesn't live longer because of crappy-skimped VRM design and by no means can you call that quality.

What? I was saying that quality designs are beneficial to everyone as they make cards last longer/better, that's why a quality PSU can do well over its rated wattage.

Nvidia can't, which you were previously defending.

I think you misread my post, I was saying it's beneficial to to have a good design over the gimped nVidia designs currently available. If anyone wants proof of this..look at the 590 and 570, you get a bad batch of VRMs and some designs can't take any overclocking at all.
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post #145 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

I think you misread my post, I was saying it's beneficial to to have a good design over the gimped nVidia designs currently available. If anyone wants proof of this..look at the 590 and 570, you get a bad batch of VRMs and some designs can't take any overclocking at all.

I don't know if calling them gimped is entirely fair, they're perfectly good cards, just not quite as fast as the current AMD alternatives. Personally I only just bought my new rig, and making the choice between the two was difficult. In the end I only went with NV because I've always liked their drivers.

(It also helps that when you've got SLI on a normal-sized 60hz screen, pretty much anything is going to be powerful enough biggrin.gif)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtom320 View Post

Even if the 680 was 50% faster then the 7970 while underclocked I'd still have a fundamental problem with this new philosophy. I don't know if it will cause me to go purely AMD from here on out. If the performance is 15% + over the competition it becomes a tough sell to go with the other guy despite any issues I have with their business practices and what I think they think about me.

So... if NVidia artificially slowed down their cards by 25%, and then let the board manufacturers "overclock" them, you'd be cool with that? biggrin.gif

It seems to me the issue with NVs current range, for some people, is that they are already overclocked and running pretty much at the highest safe voltage. What people honestly seem to want is for the cards to be a little bit worse, so they can buy the "premium" non-stock editions. Either that, or they just want the cards to be faster, and screw the RMA rate. In which case, why aren't people just complaining the cards are slow?

What I really want to see is the RMA rate on the overvolted cards.

IMHO the only thing that NV really screwed up here, was their PR. That, and they should have had the greenlight policy ironed out and drilled into the manufacturers from the outset. I find it hard to believe that they did not realise electromigration on the 28nm cards was going to be an issue prior to release.
post #146 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilOC View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

I think you misread my post, I was saying it's beneficial to to have a good design over the gimped nVidia designs currently available. If anyone wants proof of this..look at the 590 and 570, you get a bad batch of VRMs and some designs can't take any overclocking at all.

I don't know if calling them gimped is entirely fair, they're perfectly good cards, just not quite as fast as the current AMD alternatives. Personally I only just bought my new rig, and making the choice between the two was difficult. In the end I only went with NV because I've always liked their drivers.

(It also helps that when you've got SLI on a normal-sized 60hz screen, pretty much anything is going to be powerful enough biggrin.gif)

The GPUs themselves aren't gimped, the VRMs and board design is.
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post #147 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

The GPUs themselves aren't gimped, the VRMs and board design is.

Yup. Point people seem to be missing.

And the problem is that the same restrictions are in place for the boards/VRMs that are higher quality.
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post #148 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtom320 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

The GPUs themselves aren't gimped, the VRMs and board design is.

Yup. Point people seem to be missing.

And the problem is that the same restrictions are in place for the boards/VRMs that are higher quality.

Which is why I really dislike the whole Green Light mess at the moment.
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post #149 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

The GPUs themselves aren't gimped, the VRMs and board design is.

I suppose my main point was that if the card works, who cares if they use cheaper components for the board? Everything I've read so far seems to indicate that the GTX 680's susceptibility to high voltages is caused by electromigration, probably as a result of the fab processes (and the spectacularly low yields) used for the 28nm chips. So surely better VRMs wouldn't actually help?

If the above is true, surely that means using cheap VRMs is literally just driving the price down a little, and they aren't really sacrificing anything? I haven't heard anything about GTX 680 VRMs failing or overheating like they did on some of NV's older boards, even NV themselves point the finger to electromigration on the GPU die to explain RMA rates.

I honestly understand if you're complaining that the 680 doesn't totally blow AMD out of the water, or if it's a bit over priced (by the gods it's overpriced), I just disagree that the design is particularly "gimped". Personally I think they've pushed the chip pretty much as far as it can safely go, and I'm cool with that.

Now I just want them to **** and release a new chip sooner biggrin.gif Although I might get the new AMD cards next time, since I hear AMD have started a wee bit of a driver revamp these days. Kind of curious to see how they've changed.
post #150 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilOC View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

The GPUs themselves aren't gimped, the VRMs and board design is.

I suppose my main point was that if the card works, who cares if they use cheaper components for the board? Everything I've read so far seems to indicate that the GTX 680's susceptibility to high voltages is caused by electromigration, probably as a result of the fab processes (and the spectacularly low yields) used for the 28nm chips. So surely better VRMs wouldn't actually help?

If the above is true, surely that means using cheap VRMs is literally just driving the price down a little, and they aren't really sacrificing anything? I haven't heard anything about GTX 680 VRMs failing or overheating like they did on some of NV's older boards, even NV themselves point the finger to electromigration on the GPU die to explain RMA rates.

I honestly understand if you're complaining that the 680 doesn't totally blow AMD out of the water, or if it's a bit over priced (by the gods it's overpriced), I just disagree that the design is particularly "gimped". Personally I think they've pushed the chip pretty much as far as it can safely go, and I'm cool with that.

Now I just want them to **** and release a new chip sooner biggrin.gif Although I might get the new AMD cards next time, since I hear AMD have started a wee bit of a driver revamp these days. Kind of curious to see how they've changed.
Lets all buy cheap PSUs and cheap motherboards, they just work, right? Sure, they won't last anywhere nearly as long but they will work. rolleyes.gif

Anyone want to read up the specs on the parts used in nVidia's VRMs? Maybe we can get an true, completely unbiased and fully proven idea of quality then, because from what I've seen it's more due to cheap VRMs, unless you're counting nVidia's word...Which is pretty unbiased, right? If it's electromigration, why aren't owners of 680s that support OVing reporting heaps of deaths or degradation as is typical of electromigration? Why is AMD (Who are using the exact same process) not reporting electromigration? The VRM design (as far as I can actually tell) is done as cheap as possible...the GTX 570 and GTX 590 having a few cards blowing up at stock when you had a bad batch of VRMs capable of easily delivering less current prove that nVidia really is making VRMs that can power the GPU at rated speeds but not much higher, it is gimped assuming that is true.
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Ænema
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The Outsider
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Intel Core i5 3570k @ 4.5Ghz ASRock Z77 Pro3 Powercolor Radeon HD7950 PCS+ Boost 4x4GB G.Skill Ares 1866Mhz CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Corsair Force 3 120GB  Crucial M4 256GB Western Digital Black 1TB WD1002FAEX Seagate Barracuda 3TB ST3000DM001 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingCooling
Samsung EcoGreen F4 HD204UI 2TB Pioneer DVR-220LBKS Noctua NH-D14 Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm 
CoolingCoolingOSOS
Corsair AF140 Quiet Edition Stock PCS+ Cooler (HD7950) OpenSUSE Linux 12.3 64bit Windows 8 Pro 64bit with ClassicShell 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
BenQ G2220HD Samsung SyncMaster 710v Ducky Shine II White LED, Cherry Blue Silverstone Strider Plus 500w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
CoolerMaster CM690 II Black and White Logitech G700 Razer Goliathus Fragged Extended Speed Edition ASUS Xonar DX 
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