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[Ars] - Windows, reimagined: A review of Windows 8 - Page 2

post #11 of 80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lime View Post

My Windows 8 configuration has Start8 with WinKey or Ctrl+click on the start menu to bring up the start screen. The start screen honestly isn't too bad. Anyone judging Windows 8 off of the Developer Preview is a dolt.

Who are you implying is a dolt ?

If you had read the article you would have known the author used all publicly released versions of Windows 8, including the RTM.
 
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post #12 of 80
Got my copy today for £14.99 and I love how fast and smooth it is , I played around with preview on VM and didn't like it but after one day (technically half a day) with proper install i changed my mind.
I still don't like full screen apps and awkward dragging the out of the way , it just feels weird with mouse , also after you drag them away they remain open in background.
I uninstalled all the crappy Metro apps and I'm using metro as a icon dock for my games and programs it , I've set it up really nicely today.
All the rest works really great and much faster than Win 7 ,all in all I'm very happy with Windows 8 , it's a definite keeper for me.
Edited by RobotDevil666 - 10/25/12 at 4:06pm
    
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post #13 of 80
Funny thing is, if MS had just kept the standard UI such as what W7 uses and gave the option during setup if you wanted the "classic" or Metro look, nobody would have any problems. Laze on the part of MS.
post #14 of 80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 
There is one paragraph that sums it up nicely and says what I and many others here on OCN who have tried Windows 8 in the last months have been saying:
Quote:
Right now, though, it's a big pain point. Until this gap is closed, it leaves Windows 8 feeling like two separate operating systems poorly grafted together. You can never avoid the join entirely, but your happiness with Windows 8 will depend heavily on just how often you have to cross over. The more you try to treat the two worlds as equal, integrated peers, the worse Windows 8 gets. The more you stick to one paradigm or the other, the better it is.

I think the problem is that people actually can't get their heads around the fact that it really is essentially two seperate environments and they expect different.

One environment is intended to give a new experience and the other is intended to provide familiarity.

For that reason, I disagree with the gap that the reviewer asserts needs closing.

I also disagree for the reason that old and new can be blended together via the ability to "snap" applications.

For instance, I am right now updating a Samsung Galaxy S2 to ICS. When updating firmware, Samsung Kies always keeps the update window "on top" of every other windows you have open. To get around that, I simply opened the metro version of my web browser and snapped my desktop to the left side of my screen. Now I have both an unhindered view and the ability to see all the open windows on my desktop listed and monitored in real time (which comes in handy for checking the progress of an installation progress bar without doing basically anything).

I think the biggest thing (at least for me) is being able to come to terms with the fact that the two areas are somewhat segregated, but also being able to understand when and why (depending on your current task), as well as being able to blend them together to create advantageous situations that couldn't exist previously.

Did you read the full article ? The author gives plenty of cases where it's not a matter of opinion, the two environments don't mesh well together. Your are saying that one is supposed to give a new experience and the other to provide familiarity, but that has got nothing to do with function. And speaking of function, when you have the Start menu replaced with the Start screen and the new interface doesn't work as well as the old one, it's also a matter of function.
 
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post #15 of 80
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I posted this over at Ars, with further examples I have found through my usage of Windows 8 of how the Start screen is an inferior solution to the Start menu and why I think the whole modern style UI / desktop dichotomy doesn't work:

Quote:
Thanks for the great review Peter!

I have been using Windows 8 since the Developer Preview, way back in October of last year, and I share all your concerns about the badly glued together GUIs that Windows 8 has. If you could only totally avoid the once called Metro interface when you're working on a desktop or on a conventional laptop, I would gladly upgrade because the under the hood improvements, while not game changing in most respects, are always welcome.

In addition to the problems you found, I'll share a few more additional problems with the Start screen compared to the Start Menu:

For example, when you have one of those days where you have to use Notepad / Word a lot to copy / paste a lot of text or Paint to copy / paste screenshots, Windows 7 conveniently puts both applications in the Start Menu, complete with jump lists with the files you just recently worked with. The Start screen has no such functionality, it won't place the last used applications in a special place, nor does it support jump lists, so in a way the Start screen is a retrogress in that you have to place all the tiles for the programs you think you will use from time to time manually, and even then you don't have jump lists. If you want to take advantage of jump lists, you now only have the taskbar, instead of the taskbar and the Start menu, and while the Start menu is dynamic in that it will eventually replace the used applications with others you used more recently, the taskbar is static and you may not want to use precious space on the taskbar to pin Notepad or Paint.

The search function, which I also criticized last year for not displaying results from all categories in one go, making it much easier to browse with the mouse or even the cursor keys (I can't believe they haven't fixed this, or at least provided an option to turn it on), has an additional problem: in Windows 7, when you search from the Start menu, you get a "See more results" link at the bottom, which opens a window with all the search results. This is very useful if you are searching for many files / pictures / music / videos that meet a certain criteria. Imagine you're looking for Word documents that contain the word "financial". This window will keep all the results for you to browse at will, open each one of those files (browsing all the pictures in one go) or the ones you think you need, whenever you need. The Start screen search doesn't have this functionality, meaning you have to search all over again in order to open the next file you think you need. Of course there is a way around this, you can open Explorer from the pinned icon on the taskbar and then select to search the whole computer (as it defaults to searching the libraries when you open it, which may not be where you have the documents), and then click on the search box to start typing, but this takes a lot longer than to just click on the Start menu with the mouse and start typing, or, press the "Start" / windows key and start typing. If you now press the "Start" / Windows key the Start screen appears and with it the much less functional search function.

There are many more annoyances, but the main idea is that all of this could have been avoided had Microsoft given proper treatment to desktop users and merged the UI once called Metro with the desktop UI, allowing for the Start screen to run as any other program would, windowed, or fullscreen, but with an icon on the taskbar, and Metro style apps should be able to run on the desktop, just like widgets do in Windows 7, and have a close button, just like all Windows applications. Putting too much emphasis on fullscreen applications (who needs a fullscreen weather app ?) that don't even have a close button is, in a way, destroying the concept of Windows, in the sense that you don't have windows anymore. Metro style apps should even be able to be resized on a desktop computer, after all they are fully vectorized.

The desktop should continue to be the center of all the action on conventional computers. Bringing the Start screen into the equation is in essence bringing a second desktop to Windows and splitting the user attention between two worlds. While you are browsing the Start screen, you are away from whatever is happening on the desktop - programs that have finished what they are doing and require your attention, Anti-virus / Internet Security packages that require your attention, other programs, like Steam, with their notifications, or even self-refreshing webpages that could possibly be presenting you with important information, etc.

Windows 8 will need many feature improvements before it can be regarded as Windows 7: an OS that feels mature and well thought-out.

Edited by tpi2007 - 10/25/12 at 4:49pm
 
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post #16 of 80
^ this is a good explanation. Yesterday I used a touchscreen Lenovo laptop with Windows 8 and an Ivy Bridge low power i5. Sure it was fast and all, but as far as the start screen being intrusive Windows 8 is very fullscreen media-centric.

For productivity you want to have the startmenu. With Start8, it doesn't have that usability problem. Tablets and smartphones have a lot less screen real estate and less CPU power so the "start screen" taking up a lot of room is forgivable.

The fact that Start8 exists is a testament to how bad this one small "feature" of Windows 8 is dragging it down. If Start8 was free (as Power8, Pokki, and ClassicShell are), it still has the problem of being aftermarket. Windows 8 preloaded PCs won't have it so non-PC-savvy users will hate windows 8 start screen with a passion. Even for those loaded with Start8, it has the possibility of messing with application installs and programs due to messing with the OS. It's all third party software though.

The Taskbar is essential to Windows and the startscreen basically kills that. If you look at Start8's screenshot it represents how it could be improved: http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/images/features/sizes_full.png

In fact, I'd say Startscreen is a step back as far as desktops. Look at Linux and OSX: there's a taskbar and an "object bar" (like Stardock's ObjectDock for Windows 7)

Having to mash alt-tab or what have you (going to the edge of the screen top/bottom for looking at thumbnails is just as bad) to see everything you have open is pretty lame.

Also, If I were running a business I wouldn't let the employees run Windows 8 because you can basically full-screen the Office app and do whatever you want in the background.

Here's a good rundown why Windows 8 is good, other than the major flaw of the start screen: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/138177-under-the-hood-of-windows-8-or-why-desktop-users-should-upgrade-from-windows-7
Edited by AlphaC - 10/25/12 at 5:14pm
 
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post #17 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post

^ this is a good explanation. Yesterday I used a touchscreen Lenovo laptop with Windows 8 and an Ivy Bridge low power i5. Sure it was fast and all, but as far as the start screen being intrusive Windows 8 is very fullscreen media-centric.
For productivity you want to have the startmenu. With Start8, it doesn't have that usability problem. Tablets and smartphones have a lot less screen real estate and less CPU power so the "start screen" taking up a lot of room is forgivable.
The fact that Start8 exists is a testament to how bad this one small "feature" of Windows 8 is dragging it down. If Start8 was free, it still has the problem of being aftermarket. Windows 8 preloaded PCs won't have it so non-PC-savvy users will hate windows 8 start screen with a passion. Even for those loaded with Start8, it has the possibility of messing with application installs and programs due to messing with the OS.
The Taskbar is essential to Windows and the startscreen basically kills that. If you look at Start8's screenshot it represents how it could be improved: http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/images/features/sizes_full.png

For your usage, how exactly is the start screen different from the start menu?

I can get TPI's gripe about the jumplists, but if I'm using programs that often, I'm going to pin them to the taskbar and have access to the jumplists anyways.

Also, check out the poll in the Windows subforum. Most people aren't going to be angry or hating on the start screen. The reason Start8 exists is because there are differing opinions and preferences (key words here), and they saw an opportunity to capitalize on that.
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post #18 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketxxx View Post

Funny thing is, if MS had just kept the standard UI such as what W7 uses and gave the option during setup if you wanted the "classic" or Metro look, nobody would have any problems. Laze on the part of MS.

This exactly.  I would probably be much more accepting of Win8 on the desktop if Microsoft wasn't making Metro so unavoidable.  To give them some credit though, I can understand where they are coming from.  For better or worse, tablets don't seem to be going away anytime soon and it makes sense to build an OS that acts as a bridge between the two.  I just feel that they haven't really struck the right balance yet.  The experience doesn't feel as seamless and intuitive as I'd like it to be.  

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post #19 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7heMy7h View Post

This exactly.  I would probably be much more accepting of Win8 on the desktop if Microsoft wasn't making Metro so unavoidable.  To give them some credit though, I can understand where they are coming from.  For better or worse, tablets don't seem to be going away anytime soon and it makes sense to build an OS that acts as a bridge between the two.  I just feel that they haven't really struck the right balance yet.  The experience doesn't feel as seamless and intuitive as I'd like it to be.  

It's also the first time something like this was attempted. I'm fairly sure they'll improve and find the right balance as they get more feedback. A group of people working on the OS isn't as likely to find as many flaws as several million people using it for normal work.

Not to mention making changes takes time and lots of testing to make sure there aren't any bugs.
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post #20 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Did you read the full article ? The author gives plenty of cases where it's not a matter of opinion, the two environments don't mesh well together. Your are saying that one is supposed to give a new experience and the other to provide familiarity, but that has got nothing to do with function. And speaking of function, when you have the Start menu replaced with the Start screen and the new interface doesn't work as well as the old one, it's also a matter of function.

His complaints are the EXACT things I was alluding to.

When using Windows 8, you have to accept that the two environments are not SUPPOSED to blend into each other.

The two environments are there for a reason and you have to come to that realization before you can start to understand/use Windows 8.

Expecting a desktop app to magically attach itself to a metro app is not going to work, in the same way that expecting metro apps to tie into desktop apps is not going to work.

The desktop is there for your familiar Windows experience and metro is there for the newer, more "casual" experience (even though I wouldn't agree with that description).

You can utilize the new Windows 8 "modern style" features, but you need to use "modern style" apps.

That's where the importance of knowing the difference between the two environments and being able to use them side by side instead of trying to mash them into one comes in.
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 10/25/12 at 5:13pm
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