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[Ars] - Windows, reimagined: A review of Windows 8 - Page 4

post #31 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Err... I honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make about nr. 1. What do you understand by merging Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 ? And is WIndows 8 has a desktop why on earth do you say the desktop has nothing to do with it ? He talks about "sharing the user interface, sharing some of those development tools, and over time we'll just get to do more and more of that".
What do understand by sharing more and more of that ? It seems to me he is talking about sharing things between the ultra mobile platform and Windows 8, which now caters to the desktop and mobile platform. So, it all indicates more and more ultramobile sharing with Windows 8 (including the desktop, obviously) and vice-versa. That is what "merge" means.
The examples I gave are in the post I wrote over at Ars, which I quoted in post #16.

Well you have to use some common sense when enterpreting his words, as well as formulating an idea of how the merging of Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 will actually happen or be possible.

The fact that the metro interface is the only thing that is constant between W8 and WP8, as well as the fact that apps made for W8 are made to be compatible with WP8 etc.

My point was that Desktop and Metro and INTENDED to be seperate experiences and that coming into W8 with the mindset that you're going to be molding the two into one is a recipe for disappointment as well as incorrect usage/understanding of the OS.

Your response was to tell me about how MS intends to allow W8 and WP8 to interact, yet totally ignoring the fact that both W8 and WP8 and intended to share the same Metro experience while the same is obviously not the same for the desktop part of W8.
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post #32 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Err... I honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make about nr. 1. What do you understand by merging Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 ? And is WIndows 8 has a desktop why on earth do you say the desktop has nothing to do with it ? He talks about "sharing the user interface, sharing some of those development tools, and over time we'll just get to do more and more of that".
What do understand by sharing more and more of that ? It seems to me he is talking about sharing things between the ultra mobile platform and Windows 8, which now caters to the desktop and mobile platform. So, it all indicates more and more ultramobile sharing with Windows 8 (including the desktop, obviously) and vice-versa. That is what "merge" means.
The examples I gave are in the post I wrote over at Ars, which I quoted in post #16.

Well you have to use some common sense when enterpreting his words, as well as formulating an idea of how the merging of Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 will actually happen or be possible.

The fact that the metro interface is the only thing that is constant between W8 and WP8, as well as the fact that apps made for W8 are made to be compatible with WP8 etc.

My point was that Desktop and Metro and INTENDED to be seperate experiences and that coming into W8 with the mindset that you're going to be molding the two into one is a recipe for disappointment as well as incorrect usage/understanding of the OS.

Your response was to tell me about how MS intends to allow W8 and WP8 to interact, yet totally ignoring the fact that both W8 and WP8 and intended to share the same Metro experience while the same is obviously not the same for the desktop part of W8.

You have a way of distorting reality that baffles me.

So you interpreted his statements with common sense and I didn't. Every reviewer is pointing out inconsistencies, Bill Gates is talking about more future sharing of not only the UI (which includes the desktop, the desktop is a UI) as well as sharing development tools, he talks (in the video) about blending in various forms of input, and all you say is that we should be prepared for separate experiences which, as I pointed out and you selectively ignored, are already mingling with each other. The "modern style UI" is already encroaching into the desktop with the Edge UI, the charms bar and the Wireless bar, and you must use them in order to accomplish certain tasks, not to mention the fact that since you don't have a Start menu, you may have to use the Start screen. For someone who says the experiences are meant to be separate, the absence of the Start menu, or at least the possibility of turning it on, is a contradiction.

Windows 8 is a half baked product and you are "selling" that as a feature.
Edited by tpi2007 - 10/25/12 at 8:40pm
 
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post #33 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SectorNine50 View Post

Quote:
Windows 8 is a study in compromises. Do its two halves form a coherent whole?

This quote alone encompasses my biggest problems with Windows 8.

They half-way changed Windows, but in the mean time forcibly removed the ability to go back. So now we essentially have this strange two-UI operating system that leads to frustration and confusion.

If you are going to do something, commit to it. This is true for everything, Microsoft!

I agree with you, they can have everything the same internally for all I care, but make a proper desktop GUI, a proper tablet GUI and a proper phone GUI and have them on each platform while borrowing aspects from each other when they benefit the experience..You know, like Apple. They didn't go "Oh by the way, we're making the iOS launcher with some mods your new OS X start screen" but instead incorporated and swapped features from iOS to OS X while sharing the same code base.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 
There is one paragraph that sums it up nicely and says what I and many others here on OCN who have tried Windows 8 in the last months have been saying:
Quote:
Right now, though, it's a big pain point. Until this gap is closed, it leaves Windows 8 feeling like two separate operating systems poorly grafted together. You can never avoid the join entirely, but your happiness with Windows 8 will depend heavily on just how often you have to cross over. The more you try to treat the two worlds as equal, integrated peers, the worse Windows 8 gets. The more you stick to one paradigm or the other, the better it is.

I think the problem is that people actually can't get their heads around the fact that it really is essentially two seperate environments and they expect different.

One environment is intended to give a new experience and the other is intended to provide familiarity.

For that reason, I disagree with the gap that the reviewer asserts needs closing.

I also disagree for the reason that old and new can be blended together via the ability to "snap" applications.

For instance, I am right now updating a Samsung Galaxy S2 to ICS. When updating firmware, Samsung Kies always keeps the update window "on top" of every other windows you have open. To get around that, I simply opened the metro version of my web browser and snapped my desktop to the left side of my screen. Now I have both an unhindered view and the ability to see all the open windows on my desktop listed and monitored in real time (which comes in handy for checking the progress of an installation progress bar without doing basically anything).

I think the biggest thing (at least for me) is being able to come to terms with the fact that the two areas are somewhat segregated, but also being able to understand when and why (depending on your current task), as well as being able to blend them together to create advantageous situations that couldn't exist previously.

Why is it a good thing though? People like me who use the start menu regularly lose out because they now have to just use the desktop or just use Metro, both of which have their inherent problems for a desktop PC..The desktop alleviated some of those with the addition of the start menu and now MS has removed that. Why would my solution (Metro as Metro on tablets, downsized and altered Metro on phones, Aero but with a Metro art-style and a few ideas that translate well to keyboard+mouse on desktop) be worse than the current schizophrenic experience? The start menu has been the core of Windows since 1995, MS changed that with Win8 and people expect the users to learn and improve from it? They won't, they'll complain and use Metro as a over-sized start menu. There's also the fact that UIs are very subjective, what works for you won't work for me; I'd be happy if MS had an option for Aero or Classic in there and be less driven to make Linux work 100% for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketxxx View Post

Funny thing is, if MS had just kept the standard UI such as what W7 uses and gave the option during setup if you wanted the "classic" or Metro look, nobody would have any problems. Laze on the part of MS.

Exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post

The fact that Start8 exists is a testament to how bad this one small "feature" of Windows 8 is dragging it down. If Start8 was free (as Power8, Pokki, and ClassicShell are), it still has the problem of being aftermarket. Windows 8 preloaded PCs won't have it so non-PC-savvy users will hate windows 8 start screen with a passion. Even for those loaded with Start8, it has the possibility of messing with application installs and programs due to messing with the OS. It's all third party software though.

Very correct, and also the reason I won't use Start8, ClassicShell, etc, what if MS finds a way to lock those out in the future? I'd rather work on getting a good Linux install (Remember, with Linux I can swap any bit of hardware, install drivers and go whereas with Windows if I swap certain bits of hardware you have to reinstall and can suffer some issues, it's definitely not as easy) than risk being screwed over in the future and having to do it then anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post

^ this is a good explanation. Yesterday I used a touchscreen Lenovo laptop with Windows 8 and an Ivy Bridge low power i5. Sure it was fast and all, but as far as the start screen being intrusive Windows 8 is very fullscreen media-centric.
For productivity you want to have the startmenu. With Start8, it doesn't have that usability problem. Tablets and smartphones have a lot less screen real estate and less CPU power so the "start screen" taking up a lot of room is forgivable.
The fact that Start8 exists is a testament to how bad this one small "feature" of Windows 8 is dragging it down. If Start8 was free, it still has the problem of being aftermarket. Windows 8 preloaded PCs won't have it so non-PC-savvy users will hate windows 8 start screen with a passion. Even for those loaded with Start8, it has the possibility of messing with application installs and programs due to messing with the OS.
The Taskbar is essential to Windows and the startscreen basically kills that. If you look at Start8's screenshot it represents how it could be improved: http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/images/features/sizes_full.png

For your usage, how exactly is the start screen different from the start menu?

I can get TPI's gripe about the jumplists, but if I'm using programs that often, I'm going to pin them to the taskbar and have access to the jumplists anyways.

Also, check out the poll in the Windows subforum. Most people aren't going to be angry or hating on the start screen. The reason Start8 exists is because there are differing opinions and preferences (key words here), and they saw an opportunity to capitalize on that.

Jumplists and the size, I regularly open programs in my second or third screen while reading something on my main screen so Full screen annoys me (I'm currently on 2x 1080p 22" screens and one 19" 1280x1024 screen) and I refuse to use the taskbar to pin most of my applications; I already fill it up with running stuff with only two applications pinned; having more that I'm not necessarily running is just annoying. The only fix I can think of for that is if I do that anyway, get another 1080p screen and run Eyefinity (On a HD7850 atm) to have a massive start menu or if I find a way to revive the old XP Quick Launch menu in 8..even then I'll miss out on jump lists. Either way, it'll be less work to get Linux working.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Did you read the full article ? The author gives plenty of cases where it's not a matter of opinion, the two environments don't mesh well together. Your are saying that one is supposed to give a new experience and the other to provide familiarity, but that has got nothing to do with function. And speaking of function, when you have the Start menu replaced with the Start screen and the new interface doesn't work as well as the old one, it's also a matter of function.

His complaints are the EXACT things I was alluding to.

When using Windows 8, you have to accept that the two environments are not SUPPOSED to blend into each other.

The two environments are there for a reason and you have to come to that realization before you can start to understand/use Windows 8.

Expecting a desktop app to magically attach itself to a metro app is not going to work, in the same way that expecting metro apps to tie into desktop apps is not going to work.

The desktop is there for your familiar Windows experience and metro is there for the newer, more "casual" experience (even though I wouldn't agree with that description).

You can utilize the new Windows 8 "modern style" features, but you need to use "modern style" apps.

That's where the importance of knowing the difference between the two environments and being able to use them side by side instead of trying to mash them into one comes in.

And this re-enforces what every person who dislikes Win8 has been saying...Why should we have the tablet GUI? Have an option for it for x86 tablets with the desktop, but for x86 desktops have the classic start menu because a Windows desktop without a start menu is crippled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

I'm still waiting for a tangible reason regarding the metro interfaces ability to "severely dent productivity"

In terms of productivity, It is at most an application launcher with extra features that didn't exist before (but can actually HELP productivity).

Basically everything except launching programs exists within Windows 8s desktop environment and using metro at all (except to click the desktop button) can be circumvented completely simply by pinning commonly used programs to the taskbar.

I've already given you the reason it will...No matter who you are, where you work or whatever, you're going to have to learn how to use it and adjust it (Especially since they're separate UIs and not meant to be treated as one as you say), while people learn that's a productivity hit, it doesn't actually improve productivity so at best you have a hit while users get used to it and then you're back to normal.

As well as Jump Lists, right now in Win7 I can make Word load up pretty much all of my assignments as it starts (Normal users actually use this, as opposed to the new keyboard shortcuts too) but with Win8 I have to pin it; I can give you an example of a normal users pinned apps too..It doesn't have word, a small hit but if you're working with a lot of media/office work and regularly opening and closing new programs it can make a difference.
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post #34 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Jumplists and the size, I regularly open programs in my second or third screen while reading something on my main screen so Full screen annoys me (I'm currently on 2x 1080p 22" screens and one 19" 1280x1024 screen) and I refuse to use the taskbar to pin most of my applications; I already fill it up with running stuff with only two applications pinned; having more that I'm not necessarily running is just annoying. The only fix I can think of for that is if I do that anyway, get another 1080p screen and run Eyefinity (On a HD7850 atm) to have a massive start menu or if I find a way to revive the old XP Quick Launch menu in 8..even then I'll miss out on jump lists. Either way, it'll be less work to get Linux working.

I open the start screen on one of my side monitors, so that even while I'm doing something on the center monitor, it doesn't affect it. Subsequent openings of the start screen via the windows key will open the start screen in the same side monitor it was last opened in.

As for the jumplists and icon cluttering of the taskbar... got nothing for that.
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post #35 of 80
I was already forced to delay updating until after this semester, since some of the programs my classes use have compatibility issues, but the part of the review where he talks about metro and desktop not communicating has me waiting for a SP1. Especially when MS programs aren't even communicating between desktop/metro, it's a bit much.
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post #36 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzleBoy View Post

When using Windows 8, you have to accept that the two environments are not SUPPOSED to blend into each other.
Eh, I disagree. I like Win 8, but it's sketchy around the borders, and that's a bad thing. If MS wanted it to be disjointed they would have released separate versions, not a unified Desktop/Touch OS.

Also I'm not sure it's even possible to entirely avoid metro. There's at least a few things like the PC settings app which are metro-only, but affect the desktop. It's not a lot, and nothing you need to use on a regular basis (I basically never use the charms menu, and I restart with Alt+F4 on the desktop), but you still might have to dip in which sort of shows off the gap.
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post #37 of 80
I had Windows 8 on a VM and I'd never get it for a desktop but as a tablet OS I think it'll be great.
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post #38 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeio View Post

Eh, I disagree. I like Win 8, but it's sketchy around the borders, and that's a bad thing. If MS wanted it to be disjointed they would have released separate versions, not a unified Desktop/Touch OS.
Also I'm not sure it's even possible to entirely avoid metro. There's at least a few things like the PC settings app which are metro-only, but affect the desktop. It's not a lot, and nothing you need to use on a regular basis (I basically never use the charms menu, and I restart with Alt+F4 on the desktop), but you still might have to dip in which sort of shows off the gap.

I agree. There's a certain slapped-together-ness to it.
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post #39 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Jumplists and the size, I regularly open programs in my second or third screen while reading something on my main screen so Full screen annoys me (I'm currently on 2x 1080p 22" screens and one 19" 1280x1024 screen) and I refuse to use the taskbar to pin most of my applications; I already fill it up with running stuff with only two applications pinned; having more that I'm not necessarily running is just annoying. The only fix I can think of for that is if I do that anyway, get another 1080p screen and run Eyefinity (On a HD7850 atm) to have a massive start menu or if I find a way to revive the old XP Quick Launch menu in 8..even then I'll miss out on jump lists. Either way, it'll be less work to get Linux working.

I open the start screen on one of my side monitors, so that even while I'm doing something on the center monitor, it doesn't affect it. Subsequent openings of the start screen via the windows key will open the start screen in the same side monitor it was last opened in.

As for the jumplists and icon cluttering of the taskbar... got nothing for that.

It's still a full screen compared to 1/4 of a full screen, although I will admit I could get over that part pretty quickly.
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Windows 10 Bloatfree Edition BenQ G2220HD BenQ G2020HD Ducky Shine III Year of the Snake, Cherry Blue 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Silverstone Strider Plus 600w Lian Li Lancool PC-K60 SteelSeries Sensei Professional Artisan Hien Mid Japan Black Large 
AudioOther
ASUS Xonar DX NZXT Sentry Mesh 30w Fan Controller 
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My system
(22 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3770k @ 4.7Ghz ASRock Z77 Pro3 Powercolor Radeon HD7950 3GB @ 1150/1350 4x4GB G.Skill Ares 2000Mhz CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Samsung 840 250GB Western Digital Black 1TB WD1002FAEX Samsung Spinpoint EcoGreen 2TB Pioneer DVR-220LBKS 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
Noctua NH-D14 Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm Corsair AF140 Quiet Edition Arch Linux x86-64, amdgpu 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Windows 10 Bloatfree Edition BenQ G2220HD BenQ G2020HD Ducky Shine III Year of the Snake, Cherry Blue 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Silverstone Strider Plus 600w Lian Li Lancool PC-K60 SteelSeries Sensei Professional Artisan Hien Mid Japan Black Large 
AudioOther
ASUS Xonar DX NZXT Sentry Mesh 30w Fan Controller 
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post #40 of 80
Picked up a hard* copy for $48.72 from my local Officeworks after work today. I figured that if I didn't really like it, I can always go back to Windows 7 and not worry about the hole in my wallet that much. I've spent more on a single PC game and that gets me a few hours of usage at the most, as opposed to (potentially) years of usage.



*Note: The disc is hard, the box is not. Don't stuff it in an overfilled backpack.
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 D0 MSI X58 Pro-E Gigabyte GTX 970 (GV-N970IX-4GD) 3x2GB G.Skill DDR3-1333 9-9-9-24 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOS
840 Pro Caviar Black LG BD-ROM Windows 8.1 Pro x64 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
Dell U2713HM Dell U2311H Turbo-Trak (Google it :D) Corsair HX-520 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
CM690 Mionix Avior 7000 Everglide Titan AKG K 242 HD 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 D0 MSI X58 Pro-E Gigabyte GTX 970 (GV-N970IX-4GD) 3x2GB G.Skill DDR3-1333 9-9-9-24 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOS
840 Pro Caviar Black LG BD-ROM Windows 8.1 Pro x64 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
Dell U2713HM Dell U2311H Turbo-Trak (Google it :D) Corsair HX-520 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
CM690 Mionix Avior 7000 Everglide Titan AKG K 242 HD 
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Reply
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