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Screen Tearing: Do you always have to use vsync or adjust frame rates while gaming? - Page 5

Poll Results: Do you always compensate frame rates to remove screen tearing while gaming?

Poll expired: Nov 30, 2012  
  • 46% (25)
    Yes, I usually have to enable vsync to remove tearing.
  • 5% (3)
    Yes, I manually cap frame rates similar to what vsync offers to remove tearing.
  • 3% (2)
    Yes, I manually cap frame rates higher then what vsync offers to remove tearing.
  • 3% (2)
    Yes, I manually cap frame rates lower then what vsync offers to remove tearing.
  • 3% (2)
    Yes I do but I'm using an HDTV. Either vsync or cap FPS manually.
  • 1% (1)
    Yes, but I have to do something else not listed here. I will post what I do.
  • 25% (14)
    No, I don't have a screen tearing issue.
  • 9% (5)
    I don't have a screen tearing issues but at times I either use vsync or manually cap FPS for various reasons.
54 Total Votes  
post #41 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren9 View Post

As usual the further you dig the further you get from a simple answer smile.gif, I'm not sure a Triple Buffer article is the best place to go, it relies on triple buffering being properly implemented in the game engine by the developer. If you read Anands update at the end of the article that appears to be rare, more likely a low render ahead queue with the same double buffer flipping at the end of it? Anyway, since properly implemented triple buffering doesn't tear it shouldn't be a point of discussion here? It's more likely we're getting a straight double buffer or some (unknown?) hi-bred render-ahead/double buffer combination.
The part I was referring to was their explanation of double buffering without vsync. The article discusses more than just triple buffering.
Quote:
Also I should of been clearer, I didn't mean reduce framerate below refresh rate and yes any framerate (above or below) can potentially tear. There is (IMO) no reason to set a framerate below refresh rate. Well, actually IMO I don't care if it tears, I do nothing aside from adjust image quality to stay above refresh rate. The highest chance of the least input lag/stutter/ect (especially with SLI thrown in) is leave it alone for me.
You only get a tear when a "flip" occurs during a "send" (when it "flips" from one buffer to the next part way through sending a complete frame to the monitor), the "send" rate is fixed (your monitor refresh rate), the "flip" rate is variable (it flips each time a new frame is completed - FPS). Consider extreme examples, 240FPS, the buffer flips (on average) 4 times per refresh (assuming it's 60Hz) vs. 60FPS, the buffer flips (on average) 1 time per refresh. If there's 4 times more buffer flips how can there not be a higher chance of a flip during a send? What am I missing?
The same is true at any FPS, if there is less "flips" (lower FPS) then there is less chance of a "flip" during a "send" (a tear) - I don't think it can be any different. To be clear I never said tearing could be eliminated by lowering FPS, it can be reduced though - Reduced isn't eliminated.
When you say there is a "chance of a flip during a send", I don't think that is quite accurate. If you are running at 120 FPS @ 60 Hz, there WILL be one tear every send (e.g., 60 tear per second). However, since the difference between frames is very minimal, most tears are simply not noticeable.

If you are running 90 FPS @ 60 Hz you will still mathematically get a tear every send (e.g., 60 tears per second). The difference is that the difference between frames is larger, and so the tear is more likely to be noticeable.

Same thing with 61 FPS @ 60 Hz: you will still get a tear every send, and the tears will be larger still.

The case of 60 FPS @ 60 Hz is a bit more interesting - however, I don't think it is really different in practice. This is because with frame rate limiters, you are never getting exactly 60 FPS, but it fluctuates. And any frame not directly in line with the send will produce a tear, since there will be a flip during the send (and hence a tear).

Anyway, at least that is to my understanding.
post #42 of 69
I hate vsync I even gave the Nvidia Adaptive Vsync or whatever its called a real honest try and I really cannot get into it. I think as long as your monitor has an adequate response rate and you have a decent video card you should be fine. I notice a worse experience when my settings are locked in vsyc rather than unlimited.
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post #43 of 69
if there are applications that well exceed 120fps then i just leave v-sync off and tearing is not an issue. for competative applications i have v-sync off. but for programs that hover around 70-80fps i have adaptive v-sync on
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post #44 of 69
In the past 4 years, the only reason I have used VSync has been to regulate temps on cards that are running hot.
I may have had one to 2 games where I need it, but using AMD and Nvidia cards ranging from a 240 to a 6950 to a 480 I have never really needed it.
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post #45 of 69
I have serious tearing issues in most games, regardless of the GPU or monitor used (although some monitors are significantly better about it than others.

I'm convinced that the reason many people do not report having tearing without some form of compensation is the same as the reason that many people claim you cannot perceive any difference by going above 24FPS. They are just plain blind and naive wink.gif (I'd lump people who think Adaptive Vsync actually works into this category as well, but that's another story).


At any rate, depending on the game, I either use proper Vsync, or limit the max frames to a few frames below the monitor refresh rate. The second option only really works in some games, while the first works universally but can have other complications.

Occasionally, I'll run without any form of tearing compensation because both solutions are just terrible for the game, but then my eyes start bleeding...
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post #46 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilWrir View Post

In the past 4 years, the only reason I have used VSync has been to regulate temps on cards that are running hot.
I may have had one to 2 games where I need it, but using AMD and Nvidia cards ranging from a 240 to a 6950 to a 480 I have never really needed it.

I nearly forgotten about how that can limit a video card to keep it running cool.
post #47 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by trcvrs View Post

The part I was referring to was their explanation of double buffering without vsync. The article discusses more than just triple buffering.
When you say there is a "chance of a flip during a send", I don't think that is quite accurate. If you are running at 120 FPS @ 60 Hz, there WILL be one tear every send (e.g., 60 tear per second). However, since the difference between frames is very minimal, most tears are simply not noticeable.
If you are running 90 FPS @ 60 Hz you will still mathematically get a tear every send (e.g., 60 tears per second). The difference is that the difference between frames is larger, and so the tear is more likely to be noticeable.
Same thing with 61 FPS @ 60 Hz: you will still get a tear every send, and the tears will be larger still.
The case of 60 FPS @ 60 Hz is a bit more interesting - however, I don't think it is really different in practice. This is because with frame rate limiters, you are never getting exactly 60 FPS, but it fluctuates. And any frame not directly in line with the send will produce a tear, since there will be a flip during the send (and hence a tear).
Anyway, at least that is to my understanding.
I'm not sure that's correct smile.gif, the time for a "send" isn't the whole 1/60th of a second (for a 60Hz display) - a frame goes to the monitor every 1/60th of a second but it doesn't spend the whole 1/60th reading it from the buffer(s), it does that in a smaller fraction of it, in the article you quoted they say they originally estimated read time (the actual time spent reading the buffer) to be half of the total time (the monitors refresh rate) then goes on to say that is an over-estimation and it's probably a much smaller fraction. If a flip occurs in the fraction of the 1/60th of a second that the buffer is actually being read then you see a tear (it reads part of one buffer then flips to the next and reads the rest of that) , if the flip occurs in the other part then you don't see a tear (it reads the whole of one buffer and the flip(s) occurs when it's not reading). If the fraction spent actually reading the buffer(s) is much smaller than the other part (it's believed to be?) then a much smaller fraction of frames actually tear.

What (should be) certain though is increasing the rate of flips (higher FPS) increases the chance of a flip in the (small?) fraction of one refresh cycle spent actually reading the buffer(s).
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post #48 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by EoL RiNzleR View Post

if there are applications that well exceed 120fps then i just leave v-sync off and tearing is not an issue. for competative applications i have v-sync off. but for programs that hover around 70-80fps i have adaptive v-sync on

I think you have that backwards...you should need the Vsync for the higher fps situations. You don't need it if you are less that your monitor's refresh rate...which is typically 60MHz. I don't actually start to notice tearing unless I get over 80fps...I am sure it happens from 60-80 fps, but I just don't notice it often.
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post #49 of 69
Thread Starter 
There are those who don't experience ST in the traditional sense and some don't experience it at all. I've not seen any other specific trend as to why one has it all the time while another doesn't. The only avenue left to explore is the monitor IMO.

For example, some say that going from a 60hz to 120hz monitor removed the ST'ing. While others still using a 60hz monitor don't have the issue at all.
Edited by EastCoast - 11/7/12 at 8:50am
post #50 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post

There are those who don't experience ST in the traditional sense and some don't experience it at all. I've not seen any other specific trend as to why one has it all the time while another doesn't. The only avenue left to explore is the monitor IMO.
For example, some say that going from a 60hz to 120hz monitor removed the ST'ing. While others still using a 60hz monitor don't have the issue at all.

I think that the user's own eyes and brain come into the picture. Like I said earlier...I don't notice any tearing on my monitor if I am under 80fps, but I know that tearing should happen at anything above 60fps. I certain that it does, but for whatever reason my eyes and brain don't process the tear. Above 80fps I get really annoyed with a tear...almost like it was static on a TV. I don't know why it bothers me so bad.
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