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[IGN] Report: PS4 Dev Kits Surface - Page 13  

post #121 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post


Please, continue to ignore the past.

Expansions that completely changes the way a game looks and performs is an unfair advantage to those who can afford the expansion. We're not in the N64 era either might i remind you. Also what do you expect from a company upgrading their Disc Drive on the newer models to support more formats and play types? That's just helping compatibility, not changing the way a game plays.
    
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post #122 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by icanhasburgers View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post


Please, continue to ignore the past.

Expansions that completely changes the way a game looks and performs is an unfair advantage to those who can afford the expansion. We're not in the N64 era either might i remind you. Also what do you expect from a company upgrading their Disc Drive on the newer models to support more formats and play types? That's just helping compatibility, not changing the way a game plays.

I think not being able to play the game at all because the older drive does not support dual-layer is about the biggest change to look and feel you will ever find.
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post #123 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by icanhasburgers View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SectorNine50 View Post

Inconsistent? The games wouldn't be inconsistent, but how sharp the graphics are, or how many shadows and reflections there are would be different. I don't see how it's unfair; if the game adjusted settings based on what hardware you have installed then all would be the same except graphical quality. If you want to pay extra for higher resolution and more eye candy, then so be it. That's how it is on PC's; doing this on consoles would allow those without the technical know-how (or care) to bulid a PC to actually upgrade what they already own rather than having to wait until the next generation of console.
The PSU example is not what I'm talking about. The unit will work with all games out of the box, but if you want 4K resolution, you can buy an add-in graphics card. Not a big deal.
The company that builds the console would also sell the upgrades. This would give them control and consistency while allowing the platform's life to be extended (saving them a TON on development). If you set up the API to automatically handle the adjustments to graphical settings behind the scenes transparently to the user, the developer wouldn't have to worry about it either.
EDIT:
Sorry for all the edits, was refining the post after I posted it.

It would still be unfair for those who can't obtain such add-ons. Sony and Microsoft's motive has ALWAYS been to aim for every household and deliver the same experience to everyone. If they did this they would be going against EVERYTHING the company has aimed for when it comes to Consoles. They just wouldn't do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

I had to physically modify my PS2-Slim because it could not read dual-layer DVD, while newer models could. Guess what. There are a few games out there (Rock-band 1 to give you an idea how low they were in the visual quality food chain) that use DL-DVD. Not to mention the original PS2 needing expansions for HDDs and Ethernet.

The N64 had a memory expansion pack because some games needed more to run at all.

Unfair, yes, unheard of/will not be done, no.


Please, continue to ignore the past.

Consoles in the past that have allowed "upgrades" have done terrible.

Sega 32X, terrible.
N64's memory expansion requirement, hurt game sales.
Kinect and Move have done somewhat ok, but there's a reason why many kinect games don't require kinect exclusively.

Allowing upgrades on a console means at least one of two things for developers, neither of them are good:
1.) Your game now has to work on multiple hardware sets, increasing development time, testing time, costs, number of bugs, etc.
2.) Or, your game only works on the newer/better hardware, which means your game will now sell fewer copies.

Customers are often hesitant to purchase upgrades for consoles because they often cost as much or more than a game, and generally they only want the upgrade just for a single game anyway. For some games like FF11 on the PS2 I understand the exception, but in general upgrades for consoles have been a failure, and unless something changes I don't see them as a good idea.
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post #124 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post


Consoles in the past that have allowed "upgrades" have done terrible.

Sega 32X, terrible.
N64's memory expansion requirement, hurt game sales.
Kinect and Move have done somewhat ok, but there's a reason why many kinect games don't require kinect exclusively.

Allowing upgrades on a console means at least one of two things for developers, neither of them are good:
1.) Your game now has to work on multiple hardware sets, increasing development time, testing time, costs, number of bugs, etc.
2.) Or, your game only works on the newer/better hardware, which means your game will now sell fewer copies.

Customers are often hesitant to purchase upgrades for consoles because they often cost as much or more than a game, and generally they only want the upgrade just for a single game anyway. For some games like FF11 on the PS2 I understand the exception, but in general upgrades for consoles have been a failure, and unless something changes I don't see them as a good idea.

Not saying it's a good idea, just saying he's delusional for thinking they absolutely won't and haven't in the past.
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post #125 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Consoles in the past that have allowed "upgrades" have done terrible.
Sega 32X, terrible.
N64's memory expansion requirement, hurt game sales.
Kinect and Move have done somewhat ok, but there's a reason why many kinect games don't require kinect exclusively.
Allowing upgrades on a console means at least one of two things for developers, neither of them are good:
1.) Your game now has to work on multiple hardware sets, increasing development time, testing time, costs, number of bugs, etc.
2.) Or, your game only works on the newer/better hardware, which means your game will now sell fewer copies.
Customers are often hesitant to purchase upgrades for consoles because they often cost as much or more than a game, and generally they only want the upgrade just for a single game anyway. For some games like FF11 on the PS2 I understand the exception, but in general upgrades for consoles have been a failure, and unless something changes I don't see them as a good idea.

That's the difference, I'm not talking about requirements, I'm talking about optional hardware to increase the capability of the machine. Not everyone has a 4K TV (considering they are $20,000 right now), why limit your product that is going to be around for at least 4 years by making it impossible to upgrade?

1) Not necessarily, if the API is the same, the console's firmware would handle whatever graphical changes needed to occur (this currently happens to a lesser degree with the different versions of the PS3 hardware, not graphical changes, but the firmware handles the slight differences in the hardware using the abstraction layer).
2) Not necessarily, Crysis required a beast of a machine when it was released to be played at max graphics settings, but setting it to low still allowed average boxes to play it. (Plus, this point was the developer's fault, not the console's). The fact that the base unit would be the same for everyone makes that really easy to plan for. If someone is fine with the same level of graphics through the life of their platform, that's fine! They can leave it; they just may not experience the eye candy others do.

Expansion does not need to mean exclusion.

If it were me designing these platforms, I would design them so that they could last as long as possible while still remaining competitive. Allow newer graphics cards that handle higher resolutions as TV resolutions grow. Allow people to bump up their graphical experience if they have the money to (in a lot of cases, would probably be cheaper than buying a new console). Support the losses you incurred releasing the platform on the expansion products.

Hell, maybe I should go make a console! smile.gif
(Or maybe I'm way off base and should go think about something else...)
Edited by SectorNine50 - 11/2/12 at 2:05pm
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post #126 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by SectorNine50 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Consoles in the past that have allowed "upgrades" have done terrible.
Sega 32X, terrible.
N64's memory expansion requirement, hurt game sales.
Kinect and Move have done somewhat ok, but there's a reason why many kinect games don't require kinect exclusively.
Allowing upgrades on a console means at least one of two things for developers, neither of them are good:
1.) Your game now has to work on multiple hardware sets, increasing development time, testing time, costs, number of bugs, etc.
2.) Or, your game only works on the newer/better hardware, which means your game will now sell fewer copies.
Customers are often hesitant to purchase upgrades for consoles because they often cost as much or more than a game, and generally they only want the upgrade just for a single game anyway. For some games like FF11 on the PS2 I understand the exception, but in general upgrades for consoles have been a failure, and unless something changes I don't see them as a good idea.

That's the difference, I'm not talking about requirements, I'm talking about optional hardware to increase the capability of the machine. Not everyone has a 4K TV (considering they are $20,000 right now), why limit your product that is going to be around for at least 4 years by making it impossible to upgrade?

1) Not necessarily, if the API is the same, the console's firmware would handle whatever graphical changes needed to occur (this currently happens to a lesser degree with the different versions of the PS3 hardware, not graphical changes, but the firmware handles the slight differences in the hardware using the abstraction layer).
2) Not necessarily, Crysis required a beast of a machine when it was released to be played at max graphics settings, but setting it to low still allowed average boxes to play it. (Plus, this point was the developer's fault, not the console's). The fact that the base unit would be the same for everyone makes that really easy to plan for. If someone is fine with the same level of graphics through the life of their platform, that's fine! They can leave it; they just may not experience the eye candy others do.

Expansion does not need to mean exclusion.

If it were me designing these platforms, I would design them so that they could last as long as possible while still remaining competitive. Allow newer graphics cards that handle higher resolutions as TV resolutions grow. Allow people to bump up their graphical experience if they have the money to (in a lot of cases, would probably be cheaper than buying a new console). Support the losses you incurred releasing the platform on the expansion products.

Hell, maybe I should go make a console! smile.gif

As I said, having multiple hardware sets makes game development more costly for developers, and increases the chance for bugs. Developers target the lowest common hardware in most cases so they will hit the largest set of customers. There's a reason why multiplatform games on PC are not usually utilizing higher-end hardware very well, because the devs have made a game to target slower/older hardware, and it's not cost effective to make the game/engine take advantage anything more than that. They'll often do simple stuff like allow for different aspect ratios, resolutions, or just crank up the quality of render targets to make shadows better, AA better, etc. Those could be done with upgraded consoles, but again, more development cost, more testing, etc.
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post #127 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by eTheBlack View Post

Yet all PS3 vs. XBOX360 wars are about which console have better graphics.

Loud fanboys online =/= average user. Average user will buy what's affordable and gives them the best gameplay experience. Usually, this is what all their friends have for the multiplayer experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie97 View Post

It would be nice if sony integrated a Blu-ray/DVD/CD-ROM drive to play Playstation 1, 2 and 3 games.

Not a matter of the CD drive, but a matter of the hardware built in. The PS3 hardware is incapable of handling PS2 emulation. Original PS3 models actually had PS2 components for backwards compatibility, which was later removed in newer consoles for cost reasons.
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post #128 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

As I said, having multiple hardware sets makes game development more costly for developers, and increases the chance for bugs. Developers target the lowest common hardware in most cases so they will hit the largest set of customers. There's a reason why multiplatform games on PC are not usually utilizing higher-end hardware very well, because the devs have made a game to target slower/older hardware, and it's not cost effective to make the game/engine take advantage anything more than that. They'll often do simple stuff like allow for different aspect ratios, resolutions, or just crank up the quality of render targets to make shadows better, AA better, etc. Those could be done with upgraded consoles, but again, more development cost, more testing, etc.

Dark Souls comes to mind tongue.gif
post #129 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

As I said, having multiple hardware sets makes game development more costly for developers, and increases the chance for bugs. Developers target the lowest common hardware in most cases so they will hit the largest set of customers. There's a reason why multiplatform games on PC are not usually utilizing higher-end hardware very well, because the devs have made a game to target slower/older hardware, and it's not cost effective to make the game/engine take advantage anything more than that. They'll often do simple stuff like allow for different aspect ratios, resolutions, or just crank up the quality of render targets to make shadows better, AA better, etc. Those could be done with upgraded consoles, but again, more development cost, more testing, etc.

Well, sure but isn't that kind of stuff often built into the game engine anyway? (ie. number of particles, shadow quality, reflections, etc)? Most game engines running on the current consoles are running at pretty bare-minimum settings, right? If the console reported that it had x hardware installed, couldn't the firmware report to the engine that X settings need to be set?

Obviously I don't understand all the intricacies of game development, but from my high-level understanding of API's, it seems like it wouldn't be all that difficult to accomplish, or add that much more work for the developer since even the upgrade hardware would all be the same (ie. one type of graphics card, and newer ones would be required to be reverse compatible, etc).

I guess what I'm saying is; not all games would have to scale up to the top hardware, but all games would be required to run on the base hardware.

(Note: I'm not arguing, basically continuing the conversation out of pure curiosity at this point.)
Edited by SectorNine50 - 11/2/12 at 2:23pm
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post #130 of 468
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Originally Posted by jtom320 View Post

No I've never heard anyone say Crysis 2 on console looks better then Uncharted 2. Literally I've never seen anyone say that.
And PS3 exclusives are better looking then the 360's best looking games. The reason is kind of irrelevant. Killzone 3, Uncharted 3 and God of War 3 look better then anything on the 360. Except like I said earlier maybe Halo 4.
360 usually has a performance or slight IQ edge in multi-plats but no one really cares since A. Exclusives are always the best looking on consoles and B. Multi-plats look and run way better on PC then either one of them.

Multiplats have to be as good as the exclusives and the developers put just as much work into making them cutting edge with dedicated game engines, just like the first party devs. PC looks better than consoles, obviously, but we're talking about consoles so I'm not sure how that's relevant. Gears of War 3 looks better than Uncharted 2 and is just a bigger game all around. Just compare the amount of AI on screen at once, Gears of War 3 dwarfs Uncharted 2. The reasoning isn't irrelevant, rather you're failing to provide a substantial reason. You're right about Halo 4, though. Halo 4 uses sandbox-style rendering, as opposed to the on-rails technique employed by Uncharted.

Crysis 2, a multiplat, looks better than Uncharted 2:
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CVG"best looking fps ever"

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Eurogamer "But it is a world whose intricacy and realism will cause you to stop and stare long after the first drop of the jaw. The sway of tree-tops; the spray of a decorative fountain; the flames erupting from a burst gas pipe: incidental details that grab your attention for their quiet, shocking realism. Who knows how Crytek managed to squeeze Cry Engine 3 onto the consoles while maintaining such extraordinary level of detail? But this world sits next to Uncharted 2's as the most detailed and well-expressed yet seen on our TVs."
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digital foundry face off"The crucial thing is that both are phenomenally attractive games, producing effects quite different and in many ways more advanced than anything we've seen elsewhere on console. We all wanted Crysis on console to be an event, a showcase release: by and large, Crytek has delivered, and those cutting edge visuals are backed by a truly impressive game design."
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IGN "Crysis 2 on Xbox 360 has taken the crown for best graphics in a console game"

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electripig "Crysis 2 is outstanding in almost every department, not least its visuals, which are the very best either PS3 or Xbox 360 has to offer right now"
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GamesRadar:"Crysis 2 does run on consoles, and it does so beautifully. We're calling it now: Crysis 2 is possibly the best-looking console game ever."
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justpushstart.com "I find Crysis 2 visuals to be superior to similar shooters like Call of Duty: Black Ops or Killzone 3."
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xg247.co.uk"Crysis 2 is definitely the best looking game on consoles and PC"
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denofgeek "I honestly think that this may well be the single best looking FPS I've ever seen, on any platform. It really does look that good."
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XXLGaming:"The games visuals were just jaw dropping and I have to agree when Crytek says it is setting the bar in console gaming graphics. Just wow."
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joystiq: Though about the millionth FPS built around a plot of an alien invasion, give or take a few, it's also the most beautiful.
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destructoid: Naturally, the gameplay is all wrapped up with some of the most gorgeous visuals you'll see in a videogame.
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gameinformer: Crytek wisely sticks to the traits that made the first game successful while simultaneously pushing the boundaries of graphical fidelity.
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1up: Crysis 2 is just as visually impressive as its predecessor, even on PS3 and 360.

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gamezone: The game looks utterly stunning and is arguably one of the best-looking shooters on consoles. I'm still undecided whether Crysis 2 looks better than the original game, but the fact that there is a discussion about which looks better speaks volumes on what Crytek was able to accomplish with their engine.
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strategyinformer: Crysis 2 is bloody gorgeous, and by far one of the most polished games we've ever played. Watching the cityscape come crashing down around you in all its HD glory is quite the sight, especially in some of the more open areas midway through the main campaign. Whether you've diving across rooftops or making your way into the heart of an alien hive, it's all jaw-dropping throughout.
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gamerevolution: Somehow the team over at Crytek has found a way to make their sequel just as visually remarkable as the original and without the need to spend a fortune on a fancy new video card and extra RAM (on the console at least)
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msxbox-world: Crysis may have been the benchmark game on PC but for console owners there might be a new kid on the block as Crysis 2 really is a sight to behold.
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metro: Although Crysis 2 swaps an actual jungle for the urban variety, the level of near photorealism remains. Despite the impressive scale the attention to detail is second to none: from hedges that shed leaves as you run through them to the filtering of light through a half-destroyed wall. That all this is running on a middle-aged console, not a state of the art PC, only makes it more impressive.
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