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post #261 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

4k has 4x the amount of pixels than 1080p does. And the size of the TV itself, what the TV is made out of and the technology inside of it also effects the price.

That is true. And 2560x1440 has roughly the 2x the amount of pixels of an 1080p. Back in ~2009 an IPS display was costing ~350 .. 400, if I remember correct but today you can have one for as low as ~135. Back at the day a 27'' 2560x1400 was costing about 700 while today you can have it as low as ~350. Ofcource the screen size, additional features (like 16:10 aspect ratio), etc net a premium. That is for PC displays and ofc just 2 datapoints are not really that representative, bout the rough trend has been, in my impression roghly halving te price per pixel over the past ~3 years. I bought myself a first LCD 1920x1080 21.5'' screen back at 2009, couple additional at 2010, in 2011 I got myself 3x 23'' 1920x1080 IPS screens and early this year two additional IPS 23'' 1920x1080 screens.

When 1920x1080 was launched it was also prohobivitely expencive and more so for the larger screen sizes, however, after the launch prices sort of halved in some number of years, I'm not sure on exact number as I was not really interested in LCD tech back then, it was too expensive for me. But with mass production and when such resolution was no longer a novelity prices certainly dropped. Nowadays a LCD manufacturing tech is mainstream and the number of pixels is relatively straightforwards to increase, what is problematic is that with the increased number of pixels also probability of having "dead" pixels increases.
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post #262 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by almighty15 View Post

4k is pointless guys as most people don't have the eye sight to see arc's that small on a screen!

That's kind of the point. We should not be able to notice those things at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by almighty15 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Agreed, I don't see any benefit beyond 1440p for the distances people sit from a TV, except in special cases that warrant a 84" 4K TV, and those cases likely wouldn't involve video game playing.

A human being with perfect eye sight can can discern one-sixtieth of a degree of arc at 20 feet, what that meens is that at 20 feet you can discern objects roughly 0.067 inches wide, as long as there's enough of a contrast difference between the object and the background.

For this example we're doing 10 feet as that's an average seating distance that pepole actual sit away from there HDTV's. At 10 feet the maximum pixel width we can discern is 0.034 inches wide

The average 42" 1,280-by-720 display has pixels that are roughly 0.029 inches wide, well below what we can see, the same size display but at 1920x1080 has pixels that are only 0.019 inches wide. So at 10 feet away you won't be able to discern the difference between 720p and 1080p as both have pixels that are already smaller then what we as humans can see.

What happens if you use a 50" 1280x720 HDTV? The pixel width becomes 0.034 inches wide, which is almost exactly what your eye can discern at 10 feet!! So even moving to 1920x1080 on a 50" HDTV would make no difference as the pixel width would once again drop below out discern point. You would need a 1920x1080 display that's 70" in diameter in order for your eyes to be able to discern the pixels.

And this is why the next generation consoles will not be 1080p, like I've said all along tongue.gif

This next generation will be 1080p. But, I have a feeling that with console settings you will be able to change between 720p and 1080p. And in some games they will either be 60FPS for both, 30FPS for both or 30FPS for 1080p and 60FPS for 720p depending on the game. As for 10 feet away... that is the distance when I am personally in bed. When I am up I am around 4 - 6 feet away from my TV. From both distances I can notice pixels depending on what is on screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

4k has 4x the amount of pixels than 1080p does. And the size of the TV itself, what the TV is made out of and the technology inside of it also effects the price.

That is true. And 2560x1440 has roughly the 2x the amount of pixels of an 1080p. Back in ~2009 an IPS display was costing ~350 .. 400, if I remember correct but today you can have one for as low as ~135. Back at the day a 27'' 2560x1400 was costing about 700 while today you can have it as low as ~350. Ofcource the screen size, additional features (like 16:10 aspect ratio), etc net a premium. That is for PC displays and ofc just 2 datapoints are not really that representative, bout the rough trend has been, in my impression roghly halving te price per pixel over the past ~3 years. I bought myself a first LCD 1920x1080 21.5'' screen back at 2009, couple additional at 2010, in 2011 I got myself 3x 23'' 1920x1080 IPS screens and early this year two additional IPS 23'' 1920x1080 screens.

When 1920x1080 was launched it was also prohobivitely expencive and more so for the larger screen sizes, however, after the launch prices sort of halved in some number of years, I'm not sure on exact number as I was not really interested in LCD tech back then, it was too expensive for me. But with mass production and when such resolution was no longer a novelity prices certainly dropped. Nowadays a LCD manufacturing tech is mainstream and the number of pixels is relatively straightforwards to increase, what is problematic is that with the increased number of pixels also probability of having "dead" pixels increases.

LED is turning up as well. Soon that will be mainstream as well (1 or 2 years). I honestly want a 64 inch TV, but I do not want it to be 1080p. I want that beast Sony has made. But yeah, I do not have $25,000 to spend though. I would purchase a nice car and a few computers before I spend that kind of money on a TV.

Yeah, it would be more difficult to notice dead pixels as well, so if you notice them out of warranty... :/
post #263 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

As for 10 feet away... that is the distance when I am personally in bed. When I am up I am around 4 - 6 feet away from my TV. From both distances I can notice pixels depending on what is on screen./

How is that even possible? The whole 0.067 inches wide is a product of scientific testing!

If you say your set is running 1280x720 then you would be right on the border of being able to see the pixels but if it's 1920x1080 then I'm going to have to disagree as the pixels are too small for the human eye to see and it goes against every scientific test done done on the subject.
post #264 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by almighty15 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

As for 10 feet away... that is the distance when I am personally in bed. When I am up I am around 4 - 6 feet away from my TV. From both distances I can notice pixels depending on what is on screen./

How is that even possible? The whole 0.067 inches wide is a product of scientific testing!

If you say your set is running 1280x720 then you would be right on the border of being able to see the pixels but if it's 1920x1080 then I'm going to have to disagree as the pixels are too small for the human eye to see and it goes against every scientific test done done on the subject.

Yes it is 720p (Cannot stream 1080p with Comcast). Then there is my 17 inch 1200p monitor where I notice pixels from two feet away.
post #265 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by almighty15 View Post

How is that even possible? The whole 0.067 inches wide is a product of scientific testing!
If you say your set is running 1280x720 then you would be right on the border of being able to see the pixels but if it's 1920x1080 then I'm going to have to disagree as the pixels are too small for the human eye to see and it goes against every scientific test done done on the subject.

No, he's right. My 46" 1080p TV is about 6-8ft away, and depending on what's on the screen, you can see pixels. Easiest example is get a .bmp file with a 1px wide black line on a white background. You WILL see it, even well beyond 10ft away. You don't even need a digital setup to see this. Get someone to hold a single hair against a background of slightly different color. You'll be able to see that at around 10-14ft (at least I can).

For someone with good eye sights, you need a disgustingly high PPI to not see small objects. Ideally, I would like a screen of a resolution where at a CLOSER than average distance, I cannot see individual pixels, as the light from them only activates a single (or very small number) light-cone on my eye. However, that's probably well over 1,000 ppi.
Edited by doomlord52 - 11/6/12 at 11:51am
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post #266 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

No, he's right. My 46" 1080p TV is about 6-8ft away, and depending on what's on the screen, you can see pixels. Easiest example is get a .bmp file with a 1px wide black line on a white background. You WILL see it, even well beyond 10ft away. You don't even need a digital setup to see this. Get someone to hold a single hair against a background of slightly different color. You'll be able to see that at around 10-14ft (at least I can).

I did say in my post above that contrast between the object and back ground plays a big part tongue.gif

That's extreme examples and you never really get contrast difference like that in games smile.gif
post #267 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by almighty15 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

No, he's right. My 46" 1080p TV is about 6-8ft away, and depending on what's on the screen, you can see pixels. Easiest example is get a .bmp file with a 1px wide black line on a white background. You WILL see it, even well beyond 10ft away. You don't even need a digital setup to see this. Get someone to hold a single hair against a background of slightly different color. You'll be able to see that at around 10-14ft (at least I can).

I did say in my post above that contrast between the object and back ground plays a big part tongue.gif

That's extreme examples and you never really get contrast difference like that in games smile.gif

Actually, in most games it's like that.
post #268 of 468
For a 23'' 1920x1080 screen the optimal distance for a human with 20/20 vision is approx 2 feet (~66 cm), the distance is about the same for a 27'' 2560x1440 as the ppi of the screen is roughly the same (~110 ppi) and indeed for a 4k display you would need to go even larger for it to be "worth it" if you are sitting at 2 feet.

I'm sitting at approx 75 cm from a 5400x1920 screen array with diagonal of ~2 meters (5x1 portrait eyefinity) and I can skip the AA as I honestly cant tell the difference between 0xAA, 4x AA and 16xAA by just looking at the screen without having to look it up from the settings. However, I would argue that the 4k will be implemented and will go mainstream with the dropping price per pixel regardless of the sensitivity (or lack of thereof) of the human vision system as thats the number that sells if the price is right and I'm sure the marketing guys in the firms making these screens will do the best to push for it. I must admit that if the price per pixel would be roughly the same as it is currently I would be already rather tempted and I'm sure I would not be alone. How many of us would buy a 27'' or 32'' 4k screen if it would cost ~700 ? Yeah, it would be approx 220 ppi and let me tell you that 220 ppi is pretty high (I just some days ago got myself a 7'' tablet with 1280x800 resolution and this is a bit less than 220 ppi) but nevertheless I would like such a display. Would I need it ? Realistically ... probably not really - but it would be damn smooth smile.gif and I could push my nose to the screen if wanting to see something really close without encountering the jaggies.

Edit: Just for reference, the total resolution of a human eye is approx 8000x5000 pixels in the area where humans have binocular vision if you take the area where light sensitive cells are the the most dense as a baseline. Thats approx 120 degrees horizontally and approx 90 degrees vertically - so if someone feels like it its possible to calculate the size and distance of such screen that would fill the entire field of vision of the human in the area where he/she has binocular vision.
Edited by Carniflex - 11/6/12 at 1:10pm
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post #269 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by almighty15 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

As for 10 feet away... that is the distance when I am personally in bed. When I am up I am around 4 - 6 feet away from my TV. From both distances I can notice pixels depending on what is on screen./

How is that even possible? The whole 0.067 inches wide is a product of scientific testing!

If you say your set is running 1280x720 then you would be right on the border of being able to see the pixels but if it's 1920x1080 then I'm going to have to disagree as the pixels are too small for the human eye to see and it goes against every scientific test done done on the subject.

I've not seen a consensus at what arc-length a pixel can be before no longer being noticeable. I'm willing to bet it's extremely small, as in, MUCH smaller than we have now. For example, put a solid 1-pixel thick line of black pixels across a white screen, at what arc-length of your field of view can you no longer distinguish the line, but rather it just seems like the white in that part of the screen is just a bit darker? I highly doubt you would not see that black line even on a 4K display at standard viewing distance.

Of course, through anti-aliasing we do not need to go to such extremes, however AA isn't perfect and you lose quality in the process, to me the good middle ground is a decently high-res, like 1440p, and a well done AA.
Edited by lordikon - 11/6/12 at 1:53pm
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [IGN] Report: PS4 Dev Kits Surface