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[TA]In a Race Between a Self-Driving Car and a Pro Race-Car Driver, Who Wins? - Page 2

post #11 of 161
That's actually kinda cool. However does anyone know what times the human, and the self driving car actually got? What does a "few" seconds mean exactly? 3?
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post #12 of 161
I'm getting less and less interested in robotic racing especially dealing with cars.

One day a robot will be better. Robots racing are not exciting (except maybe when they fail). The human element is what keeps racing engaging.
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post #13 of 161
Depends on whether car is pre-programmed with routes or whether it will need to figure them out on it's own. Former wins, latter gets beat by Gran Prix driver any day.
post #14 of 161
I race cars myself. I've been told I'm pretty damn good at it too. I can tell you from experience that race car driving is not a science, it's an art-form.
No matter how large and complex and intelligent the control algorithms become, no self-driving car will ever be able to consistently beat a professional human driver.

Formula One race teams have the highest racing budgets in the world. They do everything, and I mean EVERYTHING they possible can to make their cars faster. No matter how fast they are, they try to get faster. One of the tools they use is racing simulators. They have the most advanced simulators that currently exist, and some of the highest paid professionals to program them. They use hundreds of variables to perfectly and accurately predict how fast a particular car can go around a particular race track. For comparison: the most realistic racing video game maybe uses dozens of variables, at best. F1 uses these simulators to calculate the perfect racing lines and figure out the best tires to use, and all the other stuff they need to know to win. It even calculates the fastest theoretical lap time that a car is physically capable of doing (regardless of who the driver is). But then when the pro driver gets into the car and goes around the track, the professional driver ALWAYS beats the computer simulation.

If the greatest computer driver can't beat a human driver in a simulation. What chance do they stand in the real world?
Like I said, they can't do it. They can't because racing is an art, not a science. The day they can better us in racing is the day they can better Picasso at painting, or Shakespeare at play-writing, or Pavarotti at opera singing.
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post #15 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by iZZ View Post

" A few measly seconds" is a ton in racing time.
I chuckled when I read that. You could find random people who could get within a few seconds of a professional on a track that size, assuming the car isn't some crazy downforce machine. Its the last few tenths of a second that are hard.
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post #16 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post

I race cars myself. I've been told I'm pretty damn good at it too. I can tell you from experience that race car driving is not a science, it's an art-form.
No matter how large and complex and intelligent the control algorithms become, no self-driving car will ever be able to consistently beat a professional human driver.

Formula One race teams have the highest racing budgets in the world. They do everything, and I mean EVERYTHING they possible can to make their cars faster. No matter how fast they are, they try to get faster. One of the tools they use is racing simulators. They have the most advanced simulators that currently exist, and some of the highest paid professionals to program them. They use hundreds of variables to perfectly and accurately predict how fast a particular car can go around a particular race track. For comparison: the most realistic racing video game maybe uses dozens of variables, at best. F1 uses these simulators to calculate the perfect racing lines and figure out the best tires to use, and all the other stuff they need to know to win. It even calculates the fastest theoretical lap time that a car is physically capable of doing (regardless of who the driver is). But then when the pro driver gets into the car and goes around the track, the professional driver ALWAYS beats the computer simulation.

If the greatest computer driver can't beat a human driver in a simulation. What chance do they stand in the real world?
Like I said, they can't do it. They can't because racing is an art, not a science. The day they can better us in racing is the day they can better Picasso at painting, or Shakespeare at play-writing, or Pavarotti at opera singing.


I remember watching a show about Ferrari back during Schumacher's reign. They said that he could notice the difference in the shifting when they tested different weights. Those guys are so attuned to the vehicle. Their inner ear's are precision meters. Ever see the telemetry from Ayrton Senna's throttle inputs? They make NO SENSE at all. He accelerates when he should be trailing off the throttle, and instead he's stabbing at the pedal. The man's foot is an illegal traction control device.
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post #17 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

Depends on whether car is pre-programmed with routes or whether it will need to figure them out on it's own. Former wins, latter gets beat by Gran Prix driver any day.

this!
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post #18 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post

I race cars myself. I've been told I'm pretty damn good at it too. I can tell you from experience that race car driving is not a science, it's an art-form.
No matter how large and complex and intelligent the control algorithms become, no self-driving car will ever be able to consistently beat a professional human driver.
Formula One race teams have the highest racing budgets in the world. They do everything, and I mean EVERYTHING they possible can to make their cars faster. No matter how fast they are, they try to get faster. One of the tools they use is racing simulators. They have the most advanced simulators that currently exist, and some of the highest paid professionals to program them. They use hundreds of variables to perfectly and accurately predict how fast a particular car can go around a particular race track. For comparison: the most realistic racing video game maybe uses dozens of variables, at best. F1 uses these simulators to calculate the perfect racing lines and figure out the best tires to use, and all the other stuff they need to know to win. It even calculates the fastest theoretical lap time that a car is physically capable of doing (regardless of who the driver is). But then when the pro driver gets into the car and goes around the track, the professional driver ALWAYS beats the computer simulation.
If the greatest computer driver can't beat a human driver in a simulation. What chance do they stand in the real world?
Like I said, they can't do it. They can't because racing is an art, not a science. The day they can better us in racing is the day they can better Picasso at painting, or Shakespeare at play-writing, or Pavarotti at opera singing.

Not only is this horribly inaccurate, it's also horribly foolish to say that a computer can't beat us ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

Depends on whether car is pre-programmed with routes or whether it will need to figure them out on it's own. Former wins, latter gets beat by Gran Prix driver any day.

Except for the fact that they'd be able to analyze and decide what to do faster and more accurately than any human ever could. It's only a matter of time.
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post #19 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwnedINC View Post

Not only is this horribly inaccurate, it's also horribly foolish to say that a computer can't beat us ever.

First off, you're obviously not a racer.
Second, what information are you basing your statement? Do you have any idea how many books I've read on the subject of racecar driving? I've lost count actually...
Thirdly, you'll notice that I was careful enough to say "consistently" beat us. Sure, they'll get good enough to be damn tough to beat. Only the best of us will be better. The main advantage the computer will have is not raw speed, but rather the fact that it can drive repeatedly over and over without making mistakes. But the computer will never be able to get that last 1/1000th of a second out of a lap like we can. It takes finesse to be able to do that, and computers just don't work in a way that makes that possible. No prediction algorithms are good enough, because everything about racing is unpredictable. It's not like chess where there are a finite number of possibilities, and you have the luxury of planning out every possibility in advance. In racing there are infinite possibilities, and you have to instantly respond to all of them without thinking. That's why the simulations can't predict how fast a human driver can really go. Because the computer just does not, and can not think and feel the way a human does.
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post #20 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post

I race cars myself. I've been told I'm pretty damn good at it too. I can tell you from experience that race car driving is not a science, it's an art-form.
No matter how large and complex and intelligent the control algorithms become, no self-driving car will ever be able to consistently beat a professional human driver.
Formula One race teams have the highest racing budgets in the world. They do everything, and I mean EVERYTHING they possible can to make their cars faster. No matter how fast they are, they try to get faster. One of the tools they use is racing simulators. They have the most advanced simulators that currently exist, and some of the highest paid professionals to program them. They use hundreds of variables to perfectly and accurately predict how fast a particular car can go around a particular race track. For comparison: the most realistic racing video game maybe uses dozens of variables, at best. F1 uses these simulators to calculate the perfect racing lines and figure out the best tires to use, and all the other stuff they need to know to win. It even calculates the fastest theoretical lap time that a car is physically capable of doing (regardless of who the driver is). But then when the pro driver gets into the car and goes around the track, the professional driver ALWAYS beats the computer simulation.
If the greatest computer driver can't beat a human driver in a simulation. What chance do they stand in the real world?
Like I said, they can't do it. They can't because racing is an art, not a science. The day they can better us in racing is the day they can better Picasso at painting, or Shakespeare at play-writing, or Pavarotti at opera singing.

People said the same thing about chess. One of these days you'll be eating your words.
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