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[TA]In a Race Between a Self-Driving Car and a Pro Race-Car Driver, Who Wins? - Page 3

post #21 of 161
Quote:
The next challenge is to get people comfortable with shifting the blame.
americans are already pretty good at this... is it the rest of the world that is having trouble?
post #22 of 161
LOL!
They can't even match a human's speed of reaction in something as simple as a video game,what makes you think they can do it with a 2,500lb. vehicle?
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post #23 of 161
I'll be at Thunderhill Raceway accepting all "Google Streetview" challengers! LOL
    
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post #24 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingoyster View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post

I race cars myself. I've been told I'm pretty damn good at it too. I can tell you from experience that race car driving is not a science, it's an art-form.
No matter how large and complex and intelligent the control algorithms become, no self-driving car will ever be able to consistently beat a professional human driver.
Formula One race teams have the highest racing budgets in the world. They do everything, and I mean EVERYTHING they possible can to make their cars faster. No matter how fast they are, they try to get faster. One of the tools they use is racing simulators. They have the most advanced simulators that currently exist, and some of the highest paid professionals to program them. They use hundreds of variables to perfectly and accurately predict how fast a particular car can go around a particular race track. For comparison: the most realistic racing video game maybe uses dozens of variables, at best. F1 uses these simulators to calculate the perfect racing lines and figure out the best tires to use, and all the other stuff they need to know to win. It even calculates the fastest theoretical lap time that a car is physically capable of doing (regardless of who the driver is). But then when the pro driver gets into the car and goes around the track, the professional driver ALWAYS beats the computer simulation.
If the greatest computer driver can't beat a human driver in a simulation. What chance do they stand in the real world?
Like I said, they can't do it. They can't because racing is an art, not a science. The day they can better us in racing is the day they can better Picasso at painting, or Shakespeare at play-writing, or Pavarotti at opera singing.

People said the same thing about chess. One of these days you'll be eating your words.
Yes, remember Deep Blue?
post #25 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post

First off, you're obviously not a racer.
Second, what information are you basing your statement? Do you have any idea how many books I've read on the subject of racecar driving? I've lost count actually...
Thirdly, you'll notice that I was careful enough to say "consistently" beat us. Sure, they'll get good enough to be damn tough to beat. Only the best of us will be better. The main advantage the computer will have is not raw speed, but rather the fact that it can drive repeatedly over and over without making mistakes. But the computer will never be able to get that last 1/1000th of a second out of a lap like we can. It takes finesse to be able to do that, and computers just don't work in a way that makes that possible. No prediction algorithms are good enough, because everything about racing is unpredictable. It's not like chess where there are a finite number of possibilities, and you have the luxury of planning out every possibility in advance. In racing there are infinite possibilities, and you have to instantly respond to all of them without thinking. That's why the simulations can't predict how fast a human driver can really go. Because the computer just does not, and can not think and feel the way a human does.

Thanks for proving my point good sir, you are a fool to believe a computer cannot out perform a human.
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post #26 of 161
I think the computer could win if you give the ai team the same time a professional human driver spends practicing on the track.

There are a few steps to building a competitive AI:

Input and state model: teach the AI how to interpret it's accelerometer, camera, and vehicle status data to update a real time model of the car and environment. For example, use velocity, air temperature and pressure to predict downforce and drag.

Output and feedback: find an algorithm to correlate changes in available controls with resulting changes in the state model. For example, predict the change in torque from a change in throttle, clutch, or brake position.

Boundary cases: take the vehicle out of normal environmental constraints under controlled circumstances, to teach the AI how to recognize changes in traction or visibility and learn how much it is necessary to adjust it's output to maintain control. Refine the environmental model to give more confidence in pushing the car to the very edge of it's controllable envelope.

Learn from human experts: Look at the places humans outperform the AI, and figure out the underlying principle that allows that behavior.

Learn from AI advantages: Look at the places AI outperforms the humans, or places it hypothetically should have an advantage, and expand that advantage to it's limits.
Edited by TranquilTempest - 11/3/12 at 4:42am
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post #27 of 161
Not in the near future. Perhaps years down the road we will see computer simulations truly be competitive to humans in this area, but definitely not anytime soon. Race car driving is not the equivalent of chess. This is an extremely complicated and sophisticated procedure, one in which their is no definitive outcome that can be directly deduced by an advanced algorithm. Chess despite being considered a sport blends quite well into mathematical principles, much more so than race car driving where variables are often undetectable. So much of race car driving requires a "feel" for the machine, which is something that cannot be programmed.
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post #28 of 161
The discussion needs to involve the definition of "iteration" rather than "calculation". Sure, mere calculation is what computers do, and we iterate on a subject. We try and try again, until we get to be the best of what nature created upon now. Yet, iteration is not limited in any way or form. The path from input > true knowledge(you could say formula) > output ever progresses and sooner, or later a better one will be the result that surpasses what man can offer. Then, once stuff gets done better than the way we do it, we may either be free to do what we want, or there may be no place for us on this planet. Let's hope it will be our paradise and not the other way around.
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post #29 of 161
So the computer cannot beat a human RACECAR DRIVER, If you guys haven't noticed many of the people on the road can barely make a right turn into a parking lot. This tech could benefit the masses much more than you guys are alluding to. While a few measly seconds is like hours in racetime, how does that few measly seconds correlate to a daily commute? I bet there would be less traffic if these things were programmed with a reasonable "merge onto highway algorithm", which most average human drivers cannot seem to figure out.
     
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post #30 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwnedINC View Post

Thanks for proving my point good sir, you are a fool to believe a computer cannot out perform a human.
Is it possible for you to be wrong?
I think his point is a pro drivers perfect time will beat the computers set "theoretical" time.
Plus I wasn't aware that chess involved variables such as wind resistance and temperatures which is never constant in real life. A computer cannot "feel" these things without processing the information. The time it would take to read and react... argh!!!! Maybe when computers have instant processing they will be faster. But it isn't so.
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