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post #41 of 59
Yes, because Jason, Conspiracy and I have nothing better to do than lie about our gear. We are obviously wasting our time here.

General warning; further rude responses in this thread will result in deletions and warnings and/or infractions based on severity.
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post #42 of 59
Not sure any of this is really useful to the OP. I know absolutely nothing about photography but I enjoy the deep knowledge base around here. Still tinkering around with my D5100....
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post #43 of 59
Thread cleaned. Keep it on topic and civil, seriously.
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post #44 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren View Post

Your post makes no sense to me and went right over my head. You're back to your old ways, welcome to my block list again smile.gif.
By the way lots of photographers get excellent older lenses that are manual focus only and use them on older crop body's and I just said that manual focus will always be more acurrate than any auto focus system out there. Other than that your post does not contribute this this thread or what we're discussing in the slightest.
Bye.

FYI assuming light is good CD-AF focus perfectly every time because lenses do not need to be calibrated. So I would argue cdaf is actually the most accurate.

Without a split prism focusing screen, I find it hard to quickly focus manual focus lenses.
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post #45 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream Killer View Post

  • I didn't discuss the reason why you're wrong because everyone here understands it with the exception of you.
  • AF System isn't a factor in IQ.
  • You saying that the sensors are "only 3 MP's apart" means you don't understand the advantages and disadvantages of having a physically bigger sensor size. (See first bullet)
  • 9-point is good enough for what the 5d2 was meant to do well - portraits and landscapes.
  • Having more AF points doesn't make a better camera.

  • AF system is a factor in image quality, if you're getting soft out of focus images due to having an out dated inferior AF system than it plays a huge role in image quality.
  • I do understand the differences, full frame can render more colors accurately due to having a large sensor and has better dynamic range and low light usage but the differences are small compared to the 7D so you see a small difference in the aforementioned things and from what I've seen the two cameras are indistinguishable from each other at iso 100.
  • 9-point is not that good when only the center point is cross point and the center af point sensor is not f 2.8 like the 7D so it wont focus as accurately or as fast in low light situations or in general.
  • Having more AF points contributes greatly to having a better camera because you dont have to focus and recompose nearly as much leading to more in focus shots than a system with an inferior focus system.

  • nope, sorry. if you think you need a better af system to get better images then you're doing it wrong. by that logic compact cameras beat slrs since contrast detect can be applied to any part of the image (unlimited af points) and accuracy is self-adjusting to each lens and sensor which means no calibration is needed. we all know that the iq of compacts arn't as good as slrs and it's mostly due to sensor size difference.
  • you still don't.
    • sensor size has nothing to do with color accuracy since the majority of digital sensors are bayer array. digital image sensors capture brightness level. color is "added" either during in-camera processing if you're shooting jpeg or when you process the raw file. this is the reason raw converters like Adobe ACR and Capture One Pro produce different color compared to in camera jpeg and other programs.
    • the image quality differences from aps-c and 35mm are so large that it affects lens choices, field of view, depth of field and shutter speed. this isn't very easy to understand if you're looking at a photo on a computer monitor but it's apparent in projections and prints. conspiracy knows more about this than i do since cinema has a bagillion film and sensor size standards and each one offers a very different image. (8mm vs 16mm vs 35mm vs 70/65mm).
    • base iso isn't always iso 100; it's different for each sensor. for example my base is iso 200; iq is worse at iso 100. comparing my camera to a different camera with a different base iso is means little in comparing iq. dynamic range comes from the sensitivity of the camera which is a system and not just the "sensor". to throughly explain both, i would need to explain electronic amplification theory and digital to analog conversion theory which is beyond the scope of this thread.
  • cross af sensors only affects sensitivity of the af, not accuracy. it may seem so but don't confuse both. cross sensors are faster but it's independent from accuracy.
  • recomposing is not that big a deal if you know how much dof you have. it's only a big deal to noobs who shoot wide open all the time (see first bullet).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren 
[7d] is only 3MP's behind the 5DMKII...

correction, this is the dumbest thing i've ever read. how do you explain the difference between nikon d700 and the canon 7d?
Edited by Dream Killer - 11/13/12 at 9:50am
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post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream Killer View Post

  • nope, sorry. if you think you need a better af system to get better images then you're doing it wrong. by that logic compact cameras beat slrs since contrast detect can be applied to any part of the image (unlimited af points) and accuracy is self-adjusting to each lens and sensor which means no calibration is needed. we all know that the iq of compacts arn't as good as slrs and it's mostly due to sensor size difference.
  • you still don't.
    • sensor size has nothing to do with color accuracy since the majority of digital sensors are bayer array. digital image sensors capture brightness level. color is "added" either during in-camera processing if you're shooting jpeg or when you process the raw file. this is the reason raw converters like Adobe ACR and Capture One Pro produce different color compared to in camera jpeg and other programs.
    • the image quality differences from aps-c and 35mm are so large that it affects lens choices, field of view, depth of field and shutter speed. this isn't very easy to understand if you're looking at a photo on a computer monitor but it's apparent in projections and prints. conspiracy knows more about this than i do since cinema has a bagillion film and sensor size standards and each one offers a very different image. (8mm vs 16mm vs 35mm vs 70/65mm).
    • base iso isn't always iso 100; it's different for each sensor. for example my base is iso 200; iq is worse at iso 100. comparing my camera to a different camera with a different base iso is means little in comparing iq. dynamic range comes from the sensitivity of the camera which is a system and not just the "sensor". to throughly explain both, i would need to explain electronic amplification theory and digital to analog conversion theory which is beyond the scope of this thread.
  • cross af sensors only affects sensitivity of the af, not accuracy. it may seem so but don't confuse both. cross sensors are faster but it's independent from accuracy.
  • recomposing is not that big a deal if you know how much dof you have. it's only a big deal to noobs who shoot wide open all the time (see first bullet).
correction, this is the dumbest thing i've ever read. how do you explain the difference between nikon d700 and the canon 7d?

yup. also to add to ISO for 7D. shooting at 100 ISO is not ideal since it actually produces a less desirable image than if you set it to ISO 160 which has less noise in it. because the 7D in fact does have noise in the images at low ISO but its not something that ruins the quality of the shot itself
    
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post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream Killer View Post

  • nope, sorry. if you think you need a better af system to get better images then you're doing it wrong. by that logic compact cameras beat slrs since contrast detect can be applied to any part of the image (unlimited af points) and accuracy is self-adjusting to each lens and sensor which means no calibration is needed. we all know that the iq of compacts arn't as good as slrs and it's mostly due to sensor size difference.
  • you still don't.
    • sensor size has nothing to do with color accuracy since the majority of digital sensors are bayer array. digital image sensors capture brightness level. color is "added" either during in-camera processing if you're shooting jpeg or when you process the raw file. this is the reason raw converters like Adobe ACR and Capture One Pro produce different color compared to in camera jpeg and other programs.
    • the image quality differences from aps-c and 35mm are so large that it affects lens choices, field of view, depth of field and shutter speed. this isn't very easy to understand if you're looking at a photo on a computer monitor but it's apparent in projections and prints. conspiracy knows more about this than i do since cinema has a bagillion film and sensor size standards and each one offers a very different image. (8mm vs 16mm vs 35mm vs 70/65mm).
    • base iso isn't always iso 100; it's different for each sensor. for example my base is iso 200; iq is worse at iso 100. comparing my camera to a different camera with a different base iso is means little in comparing iq. dynamic range comes from the sensitivity of the camera which is a system and not just the "sensor". to throughly explain both, i would need to explain electronic amplification theory and digital to analog conversion theory which is beyond the scope of this thread.
  • cross af sensors only affects sensitivity of the af, not accuracy. it may seem so but don't confuse both. cross sensors are faster but it's independent from accuracy.
  • recomposing is not that big a deal if you know how much dof you have. it's only a big deal to noobs who shoot wide open all the time (see first bullet).
correction, this is the dumbest thing i've ever read. how do you explain the difference between nikon d700 and the canon 7d?

I don't have the time to go through each bullet point that you made tonight as my time is limited but I will go on to say that you're missing my points entirely or undermining them an example of this is when you compared 35mm to the digital 7D.....two completely different formats.

Also color accuracy has a lot to do with sensor size as the bigger sensor can render more bits of color and this is pretty common knowledge I'm surprised that you didn't know this. Base iso for digital is almost always 100 or 50 as iso is the digital brightening of an image when it comes to digital (or something in that nature I'm not right on but I'm pretty close) a camera with a base iso of 200 more than likely isn't digital and again you're comparing two different formats.

Cross sensor is more accurate as it can catch focus is more difficult situations and will lock onto focus more accurately by finding focus on both horizontal/vertical planes. Having 9 points that are all cross point with a center point that is f2.8 and f5.6 is going to be more accurate and reliable than an af system of the mkii that has only one center cross af point and I'm not even sure if it is f2.8 sensitive so bringing a compact camera into the equation is undermining what I'm saying as we're comparing one camera to another not one format to another.

Recomposing is commonly referred to a bad habit when using wide apertures even ones such as 4.0 at say 50mm your focal plane will be very narrow and by the time you recompose your subject might have moved partially out of the focal plane or you more than likely moved the camera too much and now your focusing is not right on point instead of using the correct AF point.

I'd hardly call people that shoot wide open noob's as this is an artistic choice that has it's place and you would know this if you knew a lot about art/photography in general.

Also, the difference of 3mp means that the 7D/60D/t4i have a much more pixel dense image as when yo crop the full frame camera thats say 22mp to the perspective of what the 1.6 crop factor camera shows the crop will show more detail in that specific area.
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post #48 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaBernie View Post

The 5D2 is more than 'a stop better', having shot primarily with both cameras and event shooting for the last year+. On paper, it may be considered 'a stop better', but in practical application, the image quality difference (and handling in low light) is apparent. I'll give you that a crop camera tends to hit the sweet spot of a lens, but depending on what you're shooting, that's not always the best thing. Sometimes you want a bit of natural vignette, or a bit of natural distortion. Portraits, for example, tend to look better on my 5D2 than they do on my 7D, because they have a different feel, based on the imperfections of using the majority of the lens. Also, depth of field is definitely noticeably different between the two. but we're going on and on here about 7D vs 5D2, and that's not what the OP was asking about, so let's go back to the 7D being too much camera bit.
Whether or not it's too much camera for someone is subjective. You could take someone like me that gets into something, invests money and starts with stuff that may be above my experience level temporarily, but once I get my bearings, I work into it and it suits my needs for some time. I could have saved some time and money by going straight into a 7D a couple of years ago instead of picking up a cheap Rebel to get a feel (ha) for the Canon system, before switching up to the 60D, before selling that to pick up my 7D. Our concern shouldn't necessarily be that it's too much camera -- in the hands of the right person, a $25 Holga is too much camera, but it differs from person to person. We should be addressing the questions of the OP, not comparing one camera that the OP is considering to another that the OP apparently is not.
Also, going back to the gist of the original question... if your dad is serious about it and ready to dump $2000 and you're in the US:
Canon 7D via Canon Loyalty Program (see link in my sig) is down to $1023.36 (plus tax and sending in an old broken or out of warranty Canon point and shoot, can he bad for like $5-$10 on eBay or thrift stores, or maybe even lying around your house).
Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 used - $400-500
Canon 70-200 f/4L non-IS used (refurbished with the 7D could be as cheap as 20% off of 567.99 which is $454.32 - you may even be able to find cheaper on Craigslist if you're patient and smart about it)
That should be right around the $2000 budget, and provide two great quality lenses, (one normal zoom, one telephoto zoom) that should keep your dad happy for a while..
My dad really dosen't like buying stuff used, he can go above the budget if he wants to, but he was just stating a starting number
post #49 of 59
After doing more research myself actually I'd recommend a 60D, 50D, or T4i vs the 7D. The 7D is only really needed if you shoot anything extremely fast and need to nail focus every time. The 60D/50D are both prosumer quality and the 60D has a 9 point all crosspoint AF system with the center AF point being F2.8/5.6 sensitive and it is an amazing all around camera and can be had for much, much less than the 7D.
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post #50 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren View Post

After doing more research myself actually I'd recommend a 60D, 50D, or T4i vs the 7D. The 7D is only really needed if you shoot anything extremely fast and need to nail focus every time. The 60D/50D are both prosumer quality and the 60D has a 9 point all crosspoint AF system with the center AF point being F2.8/5.6 sensitive and it is an amazing all around camera and can be had for much, much less than the 7D.

eek.gif you had to do research to figure that out headscratch.gif

also the 7D still is not going to nail focus every time. its no 1Dx or 1DmkIV
    
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