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[HWI] Gaming in Windows 8 vs Windows 7: what's the difference in performance? - Page 13

post #121 of 185
11/14/12 at 2:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftstealth View Post

Your position has and appears it will always be against Windows 8 because it is causing you work as you stated yesterday. However that is again getting off topic, as this is about performance and not about your opinion of Windows 8. However at least this time you posted some references.

I don't see how this will be any different than when people on Windows XP had to upgrade to Vista for 10 even though games still supported 9. I feel this will be the same event. Games will still support 11. Unless you need 11.1 for the apparent Stereo 3d feature or thats what i think it means.

My feelings towards Metro have nothing do with with the performance issue.

I didn't feel the need to link what was already linked to several times before. Just like where the performance difference has been stated here and on other threads ... and it's only about 1% different.

It'll be the better part of a decade, or more, before game companies will switch to 11.1 and require Windows 8. This is assuming, of course, that Microsoft doesn't do what they did with Vista, and retro DirectX 11 into Vista. Remember Vista was supposed to not support DirectX 11, only DirectX 10 and earlier. That was Microsoft's "carrot and stick" to get people to upgrade from Vista to Windows 7 ... which as it turned out, wasn't really needed, because Vista had a horrible launch.

So when I see people say or insinuate that there are technical reasons (and not purely monetary ones) as to why an UPDATE to DirectX 11 (ie DirectX 11.1) can't be applied to Windows 7, I have to laugh. Most likely it's the same people who said the same thing about DirectX 11 and Windows Vista ... and we all know that was a lie.

So, I will restate my position on this ...

Microsoft is, if the rumors of them making DirectX 11.1 ONLY for Windows 8 and not for Vista and/or Windows 7 are true, doing the "DirectX 11.1 is only for Windows 8 purely for non-technical reasons so they can make money SELLING software updates ... ie Windows 8.
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post #122 of 185
11/14/12 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

It's only about 1% different.
[Citation needed]
Quote:
So, I will restate my position on this ...
Microsoft is, if the rumors of them making DirectX 11.1 ONLY for Windows 8 and not for Vista and/or Windows 7 are true, doing the "DirectX 11.1 is only for Windows 8 purely for non-technical reasons so they can make money SELLING software updates ... ie Windows 8.
[Citation needed]
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post #123 of 185
11/14/12 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

My feelings towards Metro have nothing do with with the performance issue.
I didn't feel the need to link what was already linked to several times before. Just like where the performance difference has been stated here and on other threads ... and it's only about 1% different.
It'll be the better part of a decade, or more, before game companies will switch to 11.1 and require Windows 8. This is assuming, of course, that Microsoft doesn't do what they did with Vista, and retro DirectX 11 into Vista. Remember Vista was supposed to not support DirectX 11, only DirectX 10 and earlier. That was Microsoft's "carrot and stick" to get people to upgrade from Vista to Windows 7 ... which as it turned out, wasn't really needed, because Vista had a horrible launch.
So when I see people say or insinuate that there are technical reasons (and not purely monetary ones) as to why an UPDATE to DirectX 11 (ie DirectX 11.1) can't be applied to Windows 7, I have to laugh. Most likely it's the same people who said the same thing about DirectX 11 and Windows Vista ... and we all know that was a lie.
So, I will restate my position on this ...
Microsoft is, if the rumors of them making DirectX 11.1 ONLY for Windows 8 and not for Vista and/or Windows 7 are true, doing the "DirectX 11.1 is only for Windows 8 purely for non-technical reasons so they can make money SELLING software updates ... ie Windows 8.



So you are saying that microsoft should work for free then?
Would you rather they charged you 40 dollars for dx11.1 or 40 dollars for windows 8?
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post #124 of 185
11/14/12 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

My feelings towards Metro have nothing do with with the performance issue.
I didn't feel the need to link what was already linked to several times before. Just like where the performance difference has been stated here and on other threads ... and it's only about 1% different.
It'll be the better part of a decade, or more, before game companies will switch to 11.1 and require Windows 8. This is assuming, of course, that Microsoft doesn't do what they did with Vista, and retro DirectX 11 into Vista. Remember Vista was supposed to not support DirectX 11, only DirectX 10 and earlier. That was Microsoft's "carrot and stick" to get people to upgrade from Vista to Windows 7 ... which as it turned out, wasn't really needed, because Vista had a horrible launch.
So when I see people say or insinuate that there are technical reasons (and not purely monetary ones) as to why an UPDATE to DirectX 11 (ie DirectX 11.1) can't be applied to Windows 7, I have to laugh. Most likely it's the same people who said the same thing about DirectX 11 and Windows Vista ... and we all know that was a lie.
So, I will restate my position on this ...
Microsoft is, if the rumors of them making DirectX 11.1 ONLY for Windows 8 and not for Vista and/or Windows 7 are true, doing the "DirectX 11.1 is only for Windows 8 purely for non-technical reasons so they can make money SELLING software updates ... ie Windows 8.

In case you missed the update, Windows 7 will get some DX 11.1 features that do not rely on WDDM 1.2. Features that do rely on WDDM 1.2 will not make it to Windows 7.

http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-gives-in-adds-some-directx-111-features-to-windows-7

So there are technical reasons why not all of DX11.1 can make it to Windows 7.
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post #125 of 185
11/14/12 at 3:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

[Citation needed]

I take it your Google searching ... not to mention the link in the first post of this very thread is broken?

http://uk.hardware.info/reviews/3412/gaming-in-windows-8-vs-windows-7-whats-the-difference-in-performance

Check out page 2 ... "Average 1.31% for AMD and 1.29% for nVidia".


Here is another site that shows minimal gains ...

http://www.hardcoreware.net/windows-7-vs-windows-8-performance/5/


And another ...

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windows-8-gaming-performance,3331-13.html
Quote:
Of the 10 games we benchmarked, only one demonstrated a significant difference in moving from Windows 7 to Windows 8, and only on Nvidia's GeForce GTX 660. That game was Borderlands 2, where our average measured frame rate dropped from 86.6 to 81 FPS. But at that speed, the five-frame drop is hardly worth fretting over.

...

Aside from those couple of idiosyncrasies, performance under Windows 8 is indistinguishable from Windows 7. Any speed-up or slow-down would be almost impossible to identify during game play, and we expect compatibility issues to get patched quickly by game developers.

And another ...

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Microsoft/Windows_8_Graphics_Performance/23.html
Quote:
After testing both AMD's Radeon HD 7970 and NVIDIA's GeForce GTX 680 on Windows 8 using 19 benchmarks, we can confirm that both Windows 7 and Windows 8 offer the same gaming performance. Some games at low, CPU-limited resolutions show Windows 8 lagging slightly behind Windows 7, which is a sign that there is some mechanism at work here that increases CPU time or otherwise limits the system from sending information to the graphics cards fast enough to achieve higher framerates. This difference is very small though and barely noticeable, especially at higher resolutions like full HD or 2560x1600. The same performance is, at higher resolutions, pretty much the same as in Windows 7. The difference we noticed would be smaller, or go away, with a weaker graphics card at lower resolution as the slower GPU will limit framerates in such a scenario.

...

Support for DirectX 11.1 is, at this time, useless because there are no games that support it, nor have games with support been announced.

etc, etc, etc, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftstealth View Post

So you are saying that microsoft should work for free then?
Would you rather they charged you 40 dollars for dx11.1 or 40 dollars for windows 8?

No.

Personally, I'd rather them charge $20 for DirectX 11.1 because I won't touch Windows 8 as long as they force Metro on you. MAYBE I would pay $40 for Windows 8 if the user had the option to turn off Metro and KEEP IT OFF (ie "Classic View").
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post #126 of 185
11/14/12 at 3:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

My feelings towards Metro have nothing do with with the performance issue.
I didn't feel the need to link what was already linked to several times before. Just like where the performance difference has been stated here and on other threads ... and it's only about 1% different.
It'll be the better part of a decade, or more, before game companies will switch to 11.1 and require Windows 8. This is assuming, of course, that Microsoft doesn't do what they did with Vista, and retro DirectX 11 into Vista. Remember Vista was supposed to not support DirectX 11, only DirectX 10 and earlier. That was Microsoft's "carrot and stick" to get people to upgrade from Vista to Windows 7 ... which as it turned out, wasn't really needed, because Vista had a horrible launch.
So when I see people say or insinuate that there are technical reasons (and not purely monetary ones) as to why an UPDATE to DirectX 11 (ie DirectX 11.1) can't be applied to Windows 7, I have to laugh. Most likely it's the same people who said the same thing about DirectX 11 and Windows Vista ... and we all know that was a lie.
So, I will restate my position on this ...
Microsoft is, if the rumors of them making DirectX 11.1 ONLY for Windows 8 and not for Vista and/or Windows 7 are true, doing the "DirectX 11.1 is only for Windows 8 purely for non-technical reasons so they can make money SELLING software updates ... ie Windows 8.

In case you missed the update, Windows 7 will get some DX 11.1 features that do not rely on WDDM 1.2. Features that do rely on WDDM 1.2 will not make it to Windows 7.

http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-gives-in-adds-some-directx-111-features-to-windows-7

So there are technical reasons why not all of DX11.1 can make it to Windows 7.

Thanks for the news! Rep+

(For those who might be wondering, the above article was posted three hours ago as of this writing).

The article and Microsoft's site are not clear enough to tell that you are right though. What they are saying is that Windows 7 will stay with WDDM 1.1, which is not a surprise, as Windows Vista also stayed with WDDM 1.0, even though it got DX 11. So, tying DX 11.1 with WDDM 1.2 is not straightforward. Also, some features that are related to the Modern UI (once called Metro) are understandably being left out of the Platform Update for Windows 7 Service Pack 1 and Windows Server 2008 R2 Service Pack 1 (KB 2670838).
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post #127 of 185
11/14/12 at 3:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Thanks for the news! Rep+
(For those who might be wondering, the above article was posted three hours ago as of this writing).
The article and Microsoft's site are not clear enough to tell that you are right though. What they are saying is that Windows 7 will stay with WDDM 1.1, which is not a surprise, as Windows Vista also stayed with WDDM 1.0, even though it got DX 11. So, tying DX 11.1 with WDDM 1.2 is not straightforward. Also, some features that are related to the Modern UI (once called Metro) are understandably being left out of the Platform Update for Windows 7 Service Pack 1 and Windows Server 2008 R2 Service Pack 1 (KB 2670838).

Yup, this is indeed good news. thumb.gif

People can stay with Windows 7 and get DirectX 11.1 for the worthwhile features and not have to deal with Metro ... and especially since review after review has shown that there is no appreciable performance gain for gaming in Windows 8 over Windows 7.

And best of all, Shiftstealth can sleep soundly tonight knowing that Microsoft will not have to lay off half of their staff. rolleyes.gif
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post #128 of 185
11/14/12 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

I take it your Google searching ... not to mention the link in the first post of this very thread is broken?
I mistook what your were saying. I thought you were saying DX11.1 was a 1% difference.

You still need to have evidence to back up your assertion that "it's about money, not because of technical reasons." It's quite obvious that you're making crap up. And according to what Tsumi just linked, you're dead wrong.

Even if it were all about money, no one deserves to give your whining self anything. You aren't entitled to DX11.1.

And I say "whining" because that's exactly what you're doing. No where have you, or anyone else, made a reasonable argument for why DX11.1 support should come to Windows 7.
Edited by Homeles - 11/14/12 at 3:47pm
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post #129 of 185
11/14/12 at 3:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Actually all that says is that they aren't updating Windows 7 to WDDM 1.2, just like they didn't update Vista to WDDM 1.0. There is nothing that says that it isn't possible, only that they won't. This has the intended effect of limiting things by not updating an underlying core.
If you want another non-software parallel, let's look at cars.
It would be like saying that Ford isn't going to offer an air conditioning in a 1969 Mustang because there aren't enough vacuum ports available on the '69. Nevermind that it IS possible to put an AC unit in a '69 and plenty of people have done it. It's just that Ford would rather not spend money to engineer a work-a-round, they would rather sell you a 2013 Mustang.
You are aware that by and large, the Windows Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 are ALL based on the same Kernal right?

And a '69 and a '70 mustang aren't based on the same "kernel" largely?
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post #130 of 185
11/14/12 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Actually all that says is that they aren't updating Windows 7 to WDDM 1.2, just like they didn't update Vista to WDDM 1.0. There is nothing that says that it isn't possible, only that they won't. This has the intended effect of limiting things by not updating an underlying core.
Once again, why should they update it? Stop avoiding the question.

Nowhere did it say that it was possible either. Even if it were, wouldn't there be the potential for bugs to be introduced?
Quote:
You are aware that by and large, the Windows Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 are ALL based on the same Kernal right?
Sure. They're not identical, so what's your point?
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