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[ScienceDaily]New Way to Split Water Molecules Into Hydrogen and Oxygen - Page 6

post #51 of 89
11/13/12 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thepoopscooper View Post

this is a good discovery!

Cute avatar! LOL.

PS: I hate that game more than her face
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post #52 of 89
11/13/12 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

We already did re-invent it. And most of what we've discovered is that we can make more power and do it more efficiently. So that's why.
That's factually incorrect. What we've found is that we can't do as efficiently what nature has taken billions of years to perfect. 50% efficiency in a lab is a lot different than 50% efficiency commercial. Commercial PV cells are maximum 18% efficient. Furthermore, PV cells require rare earth metals that are limited, which means we could never ever meet baseline demand with PV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryboto View Post

The possibility that this new technology imposes on H2 production from electrolysis of water, plus all the other electrolysis research further lends itself to a hydrogen infrastructure that would be safer and cleaner than the current gasoline/biofuel method of transportation via tankers/trucks.
Hydrogen is an evolution of the wheel. Initially, it wont make a ton of "green" sense, but it's the most efficient model proposed at the moment.

Biodiesel is not dangerous. It degrades in the environment within a matter of days. It is not explosive and (technically) it is not even flammable. Furthermore, all you need is a plastic or metal container to store it unlike fuel cells which are expensive. I don't do research with H2 fuel cells, but I can't possibly imagine how compressed H2 is safer than biodiesel.
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post #53 of 89
11/13/12 at 2:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicmew View Post

That's factually incorrect. What we've found is that we can't do as efficiently what nature has taken billions of years to perfect. 50% efficiency in a lab is a lot different than 50% efficiency commercial. Commercial PV cells are maximum 18% efficient. Furthermore, PV cells require rare earth metals that are limited, which means we could never ever meet baseline demand with PV.
Biodiesel is not dangerous. It degrades in the environment within a matter of days. It is not explosive and (technically) it is not even flammable. Furthermore, all you need is a plastic or metal container to store it unlike fuel cells which are expensive. I don't do research with H2 fuel cells, but I can't possibly imagine how compressed H2 is safer than biodiesel.

Yea what I said wasn't even a fact but I'm done with this, you seem to be having a bit of a problem with vomiting arguments made by the current energy establishment for why they should stay in place. Let me know when you feel better.
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post #54 of 89
11/13/12 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

Yea what I said wasn't even a fact but I'm done with this, you seem to be having a bit of a problem with vomiting arguments made by the current energy establishment for why they should stay in place. Let me know when you feel better.

You seem to have a lot of trouble accepting the truth and comprehending things.
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post #55 of 89
11/13/12 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

Yea what I said wasn't even a fact but I'm done with this, you seem to be having a bit of a problem with vomiting arguments made by the current energy establishment for why they should stay in place. Let me know when you feel better.
What in God's green earth are you talking about?
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post #56 of 89
11/13/12 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

Yea what I said wasn't even a fact but I'm done with this, you seem to be having a bit of a problem with vomiting arguments made by the current energy establishment for why they should stay in place. Let me know when you feel better.

headscratch.gif
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post #57 of 89
11/13/12 at 7:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicmew View Post

That's factually incorrect. What we've found is that we can't do as efficiently what nature has taken billions of years to perfect. 50% efficiency in a lab is a lot different than 50% efficiency commercial. Commercial PV cells are maximum 18% efficient. Furthermore, PV cells require rare earth metals that are limited, which means we could never ever meet baseline demand with PV.
Biodiesel is not dangerous. It degrades in the environment within a matter of days. It is not explosive and (technically) it is not even flammable. Furthermore, all you need is a plastic or metal container to store it unlike fuel cells which are expensive. I don't do research with H2 fuel cells, but I can't possibly imagine how compressed H2 is safer than biodiesel.

Gasoline is actually more flammable than H2, but I don't know where diesel fits on the scale. Hydrogen disperses in air very quickly. The cost of fuel cells is likely offset by the cost of manufacturing biofuels at the moment. Biofuel production is relatively low still.

It doesn't matter anyway, because mass adoption of H2 is going to happen ahead of biofuels outpacing fossil fuel. In 2015 several FC vehicles will be commercially available in certain areas, automakers have already committed to it. Hydrogen is actually very safe, safer than gasoline by some standards. Automakers went the extra mile when standardizing the composite tanks, and safety systems to ensure H2 vehicles are just as safe, if not safer than a gasoline powered vehicle.

As to your first response, he was talking about fuel cells. Fuel Cells are at least twice as efficient as an ICE(you know, the things you burn biofuels or fossil fuels in). I actually think bio-ethanol steam reforming would be the best alternative at the moment, until water electrolysis is cheap and competitive. Steam reforming of bio-fuels to hydrogen can be a nearly carbon neutral process, as the CO2 released would be offset by the CO2 consumed to grow the plants to produce the biofuel.
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post #58 of 89
11/14/12 at 7:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryboto View Post

Gasoline is actually more flammable than H2, but I don't know where diesel fits on the scale. Hydrogen disperses in air very quickly.

Very true, but it is also requires 14 times less energy to ignite than gasoline. So while it does dissipate very quickly in air (mainly because it is 14.4 times lighter than air, as opposed to gasoline, which is only 1.7 times lighter), the problem remains that it is MUCH easier to ignite when in concentrated forms (which unlike gasoline, hydrogen is kept under pressure for vehicle use) and will ignite easier immediately after a crash. But yeah, if it doesn't immediately ignite, then yes, it is "safer".
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post #59 of 89
11/14/12 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Very true, but it is also requires 14 times less energy to ignite than gasoline. So while it does dissipate very quickly in air (mainly because it is 14.4 times lighter than air, as opposed to gasoline, which is only 1.7 times lighter), the problem remains that it is MUCH easier to ignite when in concentrated forms (which unlike gasoline, hydrogen is kept under pressure for vehicle use) and will ignite easier immediately after a crash. But yeah, if it doesn't immediately ignite, then yes, it is "safer".

For flammability, I'll just quote myself from a different thread-


http://www.40fires.org/Wiki.jsp?page=Hydrogen%20Safety%20-%205.%20Gasoline%20Vs.%20Hydrogen
Quote:
As regards the low ignition energy, the value of 0.017 mJ is the minimum ignition energy (at 25 – 30% mixture). In fact at the lower flammability limit, the value is approximately 10 mj [5].
(Hydrogen requires more energy at lower flammability limit to ignite, Gasoline MIE - 0.24mJ)


In this image, values closer to the origin imply greater risk of flammability.
Quote:
By this 3-element risk metric, gasoline is the most dangerous, propane the next most dangerous, then methane (natural gas) and hydrogen is the safest fuel on all measures except lower flammability limit, where methane has slightly higher LFL than hydrogen.
http://www.cleancaroptions.com/html/hydrogen_safety.html#CarCrash

and then there's this-

h2 vehicle on left, gasoline on right
Quote:
The University of Miami, in its test, set fire to two cars, one with hydrogen and the other gasoline. While both created fires when ignited, the gasoline fire engulfed the entire car causing total damage, whereas the hydrogen flame vented vertically and failed to spread to the rest of the vehicle.
http://policy.rutgers.edu/ceeep/hydrogen/basics/safety.php
Edited by ryboto - 11/14/12 at 8:33am
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post #60 of 89
11/14/12 at 11:44am
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryboto View Post

For flammability, I'll just quote myself from a different thread-
http://www.40fires.org/Wiki.jsp?page=Hydrogen%20Safety%20-%205.%20Gasoline%20Vs.%20Hydrogen
(Hydrogen requires more energy at lower flammability limit to ignite, Gasoline MIE - 0.24mJ)

In this image, values closer to the origin imply greater risk of flammability.
http://www.cleancaroptions.com/html/hydrogen_safety.html#CarCrash
and then there's this-

h2 vehicle on left, gasoline on right
http://policy.rutgers.edu/ceeep/hydrogen/basics/safety.php

Great info. Thanks for providing thumb.gif
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