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post #101 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhill2029 View Post

Toms Hardware charts are rubbish.
Ask anyone that uses multiple 7970's, they pull far more power than GTX680's. It's common knowledge...

They pull more power and more performance. Common knowledge nowadays that 7970s outgun 680s.
post #102 of 132
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruennis View Post

They pull more power and more performance. Common knowledge nowadays that 7970s outgun 680s.

Thanks for the clarification, but i am aware of this. rolleyes.gif

To the other quoters
All i did was make one statement regarding 7970 power consumption and you get a bunch of people constantly quoting me on it. For the love of all that is holy, the 7970 does pull more power. But it's real problem with power is when overclocked, this is when things get out of control in comparison to a 680.

And don't quote me when you own 1 GPU, power consumption is irrelevant in your situation. It's TRI and Quad where things get crazy. For example if a 7970 pulls 30 watts more per card (at stock) vs a GTX680, your talking 120watts more in QuadFire before overclocking.

Also, this thread is about the 780. I made an example of power consumption from AMD simply because Nvidia have more room to maneuver in the refresh than AMD's 8xxx series will.
Edited by Mhill2029 - 11/20/12 at 11:37am
 
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post #103 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhill2029 View Post

Also, this thread is about the 780. I made an example of power consumption from AMD simply because Nvidia have more room to maneuver in the refresh than AMD's 8xxx series will.

That really depends on why AMDs cards use so much power though, if they're just merely leaky for now and AMD has worked out a way to fix that then they'd likely have just as much room.
    
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post #104 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

That really depends on why AMDs cards use so much power though, if they're just merely leaky for now and AMD has worked out a way to fix that then they'd likely have just as much room.
I wouldn't even call them leaky. AMD and Nvidia are pretty much completely tied on performance/watt (Disclaimer: Nvidia's beta driver may put this a bit more in their favor, but I pretty much rely on TPU for perf/watt comparisons and they have yet to make one). The only truly bad performer in the power category is the 7970 GE, and for such a relatively small chip, it has enormous power draw. But that's what happens when you make a desperate grab for the performance crown.

Actually, in recent reviews, the 7970 has the same average power draw as the 680. Once again, Nvidia beta driver disclaimer, but AMD and Nvidia are on pretty even footing now. Especially when you taken into consideration that AMD has the larger die size, they're doing pretty well on the power front.

Nvidia's 650 Ti is a peculiar one. It's pretty much the opposite of the 7970 GE. It seems like it was aggressively downclocked to target the large gap that was left between the 7770 and 7850. The power efficiency of the card reflects this.

As far as Pitcairn and Cape Verde go — they're pretty spectacular. They beat Nvidia in perf/mm² (considerably in Cape Verde's case), and are quite power conscientious (the 7770 isn't so strong in this regard).

Tahiti will always, in my mind, be where AMD went wrong this generation. I don't know if it was because of pursuing the HPC/professional market, but it is disappointing as a gaming chip, relative to the rest of the GCN lineup. I'm no so sure that the crossbar was the optimal solution, and I think it puts them in a bit of a conundrum when it comes to scaling up Tahiti. Then there's the question as to whether widening the memory bus while leaving the ROPs in the dust was the best way to do things. I don't know much space the extra 128 bits of bus take up (I probably should), but was it an effective use of die space and transistors? Memory buses aren't small.

Where AMD could improve: implementing RCM (if possible) would be of tremendous benefit, working on tessellation/geometry, keeping up with drivers, working on their memory bus. By memory bus, I mean actually hitting 1500 Mhz comfortably, rather than pretending that they can hang with Nvidia here. Despite AMD's previous generation leads, Nvidia has them beat in the memory controller game. AMD needs to reclaim lost ground in this area, and apply those improvements to their less-endowed chips, not just the top ones. Also, boost clocks from the top of their product stack to the bottom are a must, and they need to be more aggressive instead of being an obvious afterthought and experimentation.

Where Nvidia could improve: for GK104 — simply scale it up in all directions. GK106, in my opinion, needs to target AMD's chips, rather than being a gap filler. Also, its successor could use a wider bus and whatever else Nvidia needs to add to make good use of that wider bus. Whatever they do with GK108, just don't have any of this DDR3 nonsense. That doesn't belong on anything except the absolute bottom of the barrel cards. The 640 was an embarrassing show compared to the rest of the Kepler family. And for Pete's sake — stop with the voltage nonsense.

/armchair GPU architect
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post #105 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

I wouldn't even call them leaky. AMD and Nvidia are pretty much completely tied on performance/watt (Disclaimer: Nvidia's beta driver may put this a bit more in their favor, but I pretty much rely on TPU for perf/watt comparisons and they have yet to make one). The only truly bad performer in the power category is the 7970 GE, and for such a relatively small chip, it has enormous power draw. But that's what happens when you make a desperate grab for the performance crown.
Actually, in recent reviews, the 7970 has the same average power draw as the 680. Once again, Nvidia beta driver disclaimer, but AMD and Nvidia are on pretty even footing now. Especially when you taken into consideration that AMD has the larger die size, they're doing pretty well on the power front.
Nvidia's 650 Ti is a peculiar one. It's pretty much the opposite of the 7970 GE. It seems like it was aggressively downclocked to target the large gap that was left between the 7770 and 7850. The power efficiency of the card reflects this.
As far as Pitcairn and Cape Verde go — they're pretty spectacular. They beat Nvidia in perf/mm² (considerably in Cape Verde's case), and are quite power conscientious (the 7770 isn't so strong in this regard).
Tahiti will always, in my mind, be where AMD went wrong this generation. I don't know if it was because of pursuing the HPC/professional market, but it is disappointing as a gaming chip, relative to the rest of the GCN lineup. I'm no so sure that the crossbar was the optimal solution, and I think it puts them in a bit of a conundrum when it comes to scaling up Tahiti. Then there's the question as to whether widening the memory bus while leaving the ROPs in the dust was the best way to do things. I don't know much space the extra 128 bits of bus take up (I probably should), but was it an effective use of die space and transistors? Memory buses aren't small.
Where AMD could improve: implementing RCM (if possible) would be of tremendous benefit, working on tessellation/geometry, keeping up with drivers, working on their memory bus. By memory bus, I mean actually hitting 1500 Mhz comfortably, rather than pretending that they can hang with Nvidia here. Despite AMD's previous generation leads, Nvidia has them beat in the memory controller game. AMD needs to reclaim lost ground in this area, and apply those improvements to their less-endowed chips, not just the top ones. Also, boost clocks from the top of their product stack to the bottom are a must, and they need to be more aggressive instead of being an obvious afterthought and experimentation.
Where Nvidia could improve: for GK104 — simply scale it up in all directions. GK106, in my opinion, needs to target AMD's chips, rather than being a gap filler. Also, its successor could use a wider bus and whatever else Nvidia needs to add to make good use of that wider bus. Whatever they do with GK108, just don't have any of this DDR3 nonsense. That doesn't belong on anything except the absolute bottom of the barrel cards. The 640 was an embarrassing show compared to the rest of the Kepler family. And for Pete's sake — stop with the voltage nonsense.
/armchair GPU architect
precisely why i cant wait for the new gen cards to hit.
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post #106 of 132

daaaaamn i  just put a small fortune towards my new 680...and now i reAD THIS..? ****IN 780 end this year...**** THAT :( gonna return my 680 and buy 780 end of year

boxing3.gif

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post #107 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

Tahiti will always, in my mind, be where AMD went wrong this generation. I don't know if it was because of pursuing the HPC/professional market, but it is disappointing as a gaming chip, relative to the rest of the GCN lineup. I'm no so sure that the crossbar was the optimal solution, and I think it puts them in a bit of a conundrum when it comes to scaling up Tahiti. Then there's the question as to whether widening the memory bus while leaving the ROPs in the dust was the best way to do things. I don't know much space the extra 128 bits of bus take up (I probably should), but was it an effective use of die space and transistors? Memory buses aren't small.

Where AMD could improve: implementing RCM (if possible) would be of tremendous benefit, working on tessellation/geometry, keeping up with drivers, working on their memory bus. By memory bus, I mean actually hitting 1500 Mhz comfortably, rather than pretending that they can hang with Nvidia here. Despite AMD's previous generation leads, Nvidia has them beat in the memory controller game. AMD needs to reclaim lost ground in this area, and apply those improvements to their less-endowed chips, not just the top ones. Also, boost clocks from the top of their product stack to the bottom are a must, and they need to be more aggressive instead of being an obvious afterthought and experimentation.

Actually Tahiti initially did not impress. But with the 12.11 drivers really extracting the best out of the architecture its not so bad anymore. In fact if you look at Tahiti , it is providing better perf and perf/watt in the situations where you need that performance - in the most demanding games at the highest settings and at high resolutions. A game like Diablo III or Starcraft II might not show the value of HD 7970 Ghz. But when you turn to the games which everybody struggles to max out at 1080p/1200p and 1440p/1600p the HD 7970 Ghz does very well even in terms of perf/watt.
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post #108 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhill2029 View Post

All i did was make one statement regarding 7970 power consumption and you get a bunch of people constantly quoting me on it. For the love of all that is holy, the 7970 does pull more power. But it's real problem with power is when overclocked, this is when things get out of control in comparison to a 680.
And don't quote me when you own 1 GPU, power consumption is irrelevant in your situation. It's TRI and Quad where things get crazy. For example if a 7970 pulls 30 watts more per card (at stock) vs a GTX680, your talking 120watts more in QuadFire before overclocking.
Also, this thread is about the 780. I made an example of power consumption from AMD simply because Nvidia have more room to maneuver in the refresh than AMD's 8xxx series will.

Power consumption is irrelevant for most OCN users because mommy and daddy pay their power bills. smile.gif

Seriously though, why do AMD users get all defensive about this. It's a fact that OC'd the 7900 series pulls signifigantly more power than 600 series. As long as you're getting the performance with it, who cares?

You know you're a fanboi when you dispute a published fact to defend your purchase to the death.

7900 - less $$$, more performance
600 - more $$$, less performance

This is the way it currently stands. Let's see if Nvidia can change that.
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post #109 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhill2029 View Post

We can all praise AMD with their recent work regarding driver optimisations, but lets be realistic for a moment GK104 was no slouch by any means even with it's castrated features. By opening up the memory bus to 384bit alone will give reasonable gains, a serious boost in cores and clock speeds could spell a dramatic difference indeed.
Also we must keep in mind that Nvidia does has TDP in it's favour, AMD are already pulling crazy power figures with their 7970's. Does AMD's 8xxx series have much room for improvement? Unlikely.....because power draw is against them. This is the reason why the 7990 never happened.
That's what I quoted you on. I know 7970 uses more power faster when overclocked, but its performance also scales better with additional clock speed, and AMD would probably still maintain performance per watt tie or maybe lead. AMD is definitely better performance per watt with the 7800 series compared to the 660 and 660 ti, which is why I sent you those charts. To say Nvidia has TDP in it favor is just not true. Assuming by TDP, you really meant power efficiency, because TDP by itself doesn't mean much.

So for the record, I wasn't trying argue that the GTX 680 uses more power than the 7970.


*EDIT* My statement's level of truth varies depending on what game you're looking at, a lot.
Edited by Badness - 11/22/12 at 10:42am
 
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post #110 of 132
Might have to gift my 670 to a friend if these come out soon enough.
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