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post #11 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruennis View Post

7950s are nowadays referenced at 925/1250: http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/7000/7950/Pages/radeon-7950.aspx#3

I know what the reference clocks for 7950 Boost Edition are. Do you have a hard time talking about the original reference 7950, which is still widely available?
Quote:
My suggestion for anyone on the fence would be; do your own research thumb.gif I'm sorry if you couldn't quite grasp that memorandum.

That I agree on. It didn't come out clear, for you did provide that one link of yours.
Quote:
Is a reference 660 Ti as fast as an older reference 7950(800/1250)? At lower resolutions; yes. At higher resolutions; no. Both overclocked, the 660 Ti will be significantly slower thumb.gif
Is it as fast as the current reference 7950(925/1250)? Nope

All this is very true. However, you were talking about stock for stock. Stock for stock, 660Ti is much closer to a 7950 than a 7870 up to 1920 resolutions.

Very.
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post #12 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

Keplers are clocked higher than stock 79XX cards.However Clock per Clock the 79XX cards are faster because higher transistor counts(7950 have 4.3 Billion Transistors, 660Ti have only 3.5 Billion Transistors), this is why you don't compare clock rates between different chips.
an old reference 7950 ships with stock 800/1250 clocks, the same card can hit 1100/1500 with no problem with a casual OC.
660 Ti stock clock is 915, but because Nividia's dynamic overclock(i.e factory pre-overclock) it will never run lower than 980(known as the Boost clock) in any benches, in fact due the phenomenon known as "Kepler Boost" it will run anywhere between 70-110 higher than that 980 Boost clock, so it will run at least a 1050 clock rate( a 15% factory overclock) on benchmarks.
However that masks how Kepler cards have limited OC ceiling due to being voltage locked, 670/680 voltage locked cards that can reach 1300Mhz are few and far between, even that's only a 24% OC from 1050
A 7950 on the other hand have much higher OC ceiling, 1100 on core is fairly common(just read the review and the 7950/7970 user forum here) and that's a 37.5% OC from 800.
On this graph 7950 with newest driver is only 1.4% faster than 660Ti at 1080p(at 1440p or 8XAA AMD's wide bus and higher Vram become significant), however that's with the 800 core clock, without any OC. However when you factoring in an average 7950(1100 core clock OC) can OC 13.5% more than a 660Ti(1300 core clock OC), the average OC performance clearly leans toward 7950.

Have never said anything opposite. Stock for stock was the claim. Won't say much else, just that I never, ever, compare different architectures clock for clock. What I meant was that quite a few 660Ti's ship with higher than reference clocks, too. And that there are voltage locked 7950s as well.
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post #13 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsFI View Post

Stock for stock, 660Ti is much closer to a 7950 than a 7870 up to 1920 resolutions.

Agree with what was said but I'm finding that you have a hard time talking about performance outside of stock and the common resolution of 1920x1080.

All things considered; no, the 660 Ti is not close in performance to the 7950. Stock performance is simply one side of the coin. 1920x1080 resolution is simply one angle of many to draw comparisons between these two adapters. Having said that, the 660 Ti cannot tick as many checkboxes as the 7950. Rather, the 660 Ti is a whole lot more comparable to the 7870. The latter is cheaper and at stock offers performance that rivals the Kepler. The 7870 is also unlocked and can be overclocked much more aggressively thus pushing its performance envelope beyond even an overclocked 660 Ti. Just think of before the release of 12.11 beta. An overclocked 7950 easily ousted an overclocked 670. We can almost expect the same result between the 660 Ti and 7870.

Some Tahiti cards are locked but not to the degree that has plagued Kepler. Rather, it may just be a sample by sample incident. Until there is a press release much like Nvidia's Green Light Program, Tahiti adapters as far as we are concerned are UNLOCKED thumb.gif
post #14 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsFI View Post

Have never said anything opposite. Stock for stock was the claim. Won't say much else, just that I never, ever, compare different architectures clock for clock. What I meant was that quite a few 660Ti's ship with higher than reference clocks, too. And that there are voltage locked 7950s as well.

660Ti that ship with higher than stock boost clock, say the 1097 Mhz MSI 660Ti PE edition still can't OC past 1300Mhz on average due to locked voltage(factory OC don't increase your OC ceiling, and as I have shown that's 13% less than the average 1100Mhz 7950 Overclock. The limiting factor is the GK104 Kepler chip and Nvidia's voltage lock policy(this applies almost all 670, whereas 7950 voltage lock only applies to 7950 Vapor-X)

Also, Voltage locked 7950 still have no problem getting to 1100mhz(37.5% OC) on average(just check 7950 Vapor-X reviews), voltage locked Keplers have little to no chance of getting a 1350Mhz overclock(28% OC). Thus your argument is invalid.

7950 at max OC beats 660Ti max OC significantly, this have been the case before 12.11, 12.11 exaggerated this to the point that 7870 have reached 660Ti level performance at max OC and 7950 are trading blows or even surpassing(depending on games) 670 at max OC. These are things few benchmark will not show(since most Benchmarks are not run at max OC).

These benchmarks done in Late August/Early September, by the same reviewer using old drivers:

MSI 660Ti PE, with a 1097 Boost Clock(in pratice adding the 70-110 Kepler boost this is at least 1170 core clock out of the box)


Sapphire Vapor-X 7950, This SKU is known for being voltage locked(there is a large forum thread on this), this one could only do a 1135Mhz OC, stock clock is 850 with a Boost bios for 950mhz.


So this is before 12.11 driver, a voltage locked 7950 comes 5 FPS ahead of 660Ti at a game that favors Kepler, enough said.
Edited by sherlock - 11/15/12 at 3:18pm
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post #15 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

660Tis that ship with higher than stock boost clock, say the 1097 Mhz MSI 660Ti PE edition still can't OC past 1300Mhz on average due to locked voltage, and as I have shown that's 13% less than the average 1100Mhz 7950 Overclock. Your argument is pointless, the limiting factor is the GK104 Kepler chip and Nvidia's voltage lock policy(this applies almost all 670, whereas 7950 voltage lock only applies to 7950 Vapor-X)
Also, Voltage locked 7950 still have no problem getting to 1100mhz(37.5% OC) on average(just check 7950 Vapor-X reviews), voltage locked Keplers have little to no chance of getting a 1350Mhz overclock(28% OC). Thus your argument is invalid.
7950 at max OC beats 660Ti max OC significantly, this have been the case before 12.11, 12.11 exaggerated this to the point that 7870 have reached 660Ti level performance at max OC and 7950 are trading blows or even surpassing(depending on games) 670 at max OC. These are things few benchmark will not show(since most Benchmarks are not run at max OC).

You have seem to have a problem reading the statement of stock for stock. I am not argumenting anything on overclocking anything. I'm saying that there are 7950s with stock clocks over 800MHz and there are 660Ti's with stock clocks higher than the alleged 915MHz, whatever that is for each individual chip.

Stock for stock, okay?

Edit: To add my first OC argument to this thread, why is it that TPU hasn't been able to get 1100MHz out of any 7950 they've tested with stock volts?
Edited by specopsFI - 11/15/12 at 3:19pm
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post #16 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsFI View Post

Looking at that TPU chart, wouldn't you say the 660Ti is pretty close to a 7950 stock for stock?

He is correct. The 7870 is as fast or faster than the GTX 660 Ti in HardOCP review.
The 7870 is considerably cheaper than the GTX 660 Ti while matching it in performance.
GTX 660 Ti is slower than HD7950 while costing about the same, especially when MSAA and high resolutions are applied.
Nvidia at current prices doesn't compete with AMD in neither the price nor the performance especially at high resolutions and demanding games.

Now I am not talking about overclocking performance since Nvidia is not obliged to lower GTX 680/670 prices bases on its overclocking potential, since this is double standard....
The HD6000 series did overclock pretty terrible and HD6970 was priced higher than GTX 570, back in the day we all know when the GTX 570 is overclocked it can easily stomp all over the HD6970.
HD6970 overclock almost equal a GTX 560 Ti overclock, so why AMD didn't lower their HD6970 prices to $249 like the GTX 560 Ti?

But now even at stock price/performance goes this way :-
HD7970 GE > GTX 680
HD7970 > GTX 670
HD7950 > GTX 660 Ti
HD7870 > GTX 660
HD7850 > GTX 650 Ti
HD7770 > GTX 650
HD7750 > GT 640

I am a former GTX 670 owner. At launch the GTX 670/680 where much better buys than the HD7970/7950 but now especially with the constant price drops of Tahitis the Keplers just cannot compete.
It is highly unlikely Nvidia will drop any of their prices or will include some attractive staff with their cards as long as there are people who blindly buy their cards.
Edited by HeadlessKnight - 11/15/12 at 3:25pm
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post #17 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsFI View Post

You have seem to have a problem reading the statement of stock for stock. I am not argumenting anything on overclocking anything. I'm saying that there are 7950s with stock clocks over 800MHz and there are 660Ti's with stock clocks higher than the alleged 915MHz, whatever that is for each individual chip.
Stock for stock, okay?
Edit: To add my first OC argument to this thread, why is it that TPU hasn't been able to get 1100MHz out of any 7950 they've tested with stock volts?

Stock for Stock is not OK as it have been said before,that's only one side of the coin. Stock for Stock unfairly favors Nvidia who juiced their stock card with a 15% factory overclock(1050/915) ans masks how AMD actually pulls ahead at max OC. The most fair comparison of performance is Max OC vs Max OC.

You don't seem to read that well, from the same TPU article
Maximum Overclock Comparison
Max. GPU Clock Max. Memory Clock
Sapphire HD 7950 Vapor-X 1135 MHz 1635 MHz

From the voltage locked 7950 Vapor-X.
Edited by sherlock - 11/15/12 at 3:28pm
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post #18 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

Stock for Stock is not OK as it have been said before,that's only one side of the coin. Stock for Stock unfairly favors Nvidia who juiced their stock card with a 15% factory overclock(1050/915) ans masks how AMD actually pulls ahead at max OC. The most fair comparison of performance is Max OC vs Max OC.
You don't seem to read that well, from the same TPU article
Maximum Overclock Comparison
Max. GPU Clock Max. Memory Clock
Sapphire HD 7950 Vapor-X 1135 MHz 1635 MHz
From the voltage locked 7950 Vapor-X.

For crying out loud! I was not the one to make the stock for stock claim! Could you already give it a rest. If someone else makes claims of stock for stock and I make a counterargument to that, you keep going on attacking my argument based on overclocking abilities.

FYI, some people buy a graphics card, put it in their computer, install drivers and go on to playing games. Stock for stock is a very valid point to those people, in fact the only one there is. I certainly am not one of those people, but that don't stop me from recognizing their existence.

Oh, so TPU has tested another 7950. It is not in that same article, mind you. So one 7950 out of five made it to 1100MHz on stock voltage. Doesn't exactly fall into that average 1100MHz argument of yours.
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post #19 of 32
Nvidia's GTX 600 series is woefully out of place in terms of price perf. GTX 660 Ti does not have a chance against even a stock HD 7950. With HD 7950 boost its even worse. HD 7950 boost even at stock settings just needs the power option to be maxed to +20% and it will easily match GTX 670. On current performance HD 7970 Ghz is the clear single GPU winner. HD 7970(925 mhz) = GTX 680 , HD 7950 boost = GTX 670. once overclocked the Keplers are left behind. Even an average overclock of 1.15 Ghz on HD 7900s puts them clearly ahead of the respective GTX 600s at 1.3 Ghz.
Edited by raghu78 - 11/16/12 at 4:31am
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post #20 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by raghu78 View Post

Nvidia's GTX 600 series is woefully out of place in terms of price perf. GTX 660 Ti does not have a chance against even a stock HD 7950. With HD 7950 boost its even worse. HD 7950 boost even at stock settings just needs the power option to be maxed to +20% and it will easily match GTX 670. On current performance HD 7970 Ghz is the clear single GPU winner. HD 7970(925 mhz) = GTX 680 , HD 7950 boost = GTX 670. once overclocked the Keplers are left behind. Even an average overclock of 1.15 Ghz on HD 7900s puts them clearly ahead of the respective GTX 600s at 1.3 Ghz.

Does not have a chance against a stock HD 7950? Did you even have a look at that picture posted on the first page of the thread? TPU index for 660Ti = 91% and for 7950 (with 12.11b) = 92%. Again, when there is a really good, factual point to be made for the 7950 (far superior OC headroom), why can't you just take what actually is there? Why the need to undermine the Keplers' stock performance, which isn't lacking nearly as much as the overclocking aspect?
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