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Korean S-IPS Monitors vs Dell UltraSharp Monitors Compared - Page 6  

post #51 of 126
Will people stop using that macro image as an evidence for image quality? Please? It's silly, misleading, and incomplete.

You know what you see when you look at those monitors from beyond three centimetres? You do not see blurry pixels. You see solid white. Plain white. You cannot make a judgement of image quality from that. Image quality is dependent on accuracy of colour (delta e), contrast ratio, uniformity, correct gamut, motion blur, gamma accuracy, viewing angles, in addition to panel coating.

The only (only!) Thing you can determine from that macro photo is relative strength of AG coatings. Which one is better or worse? You need to take actual photographs of the panel at typical viewing angles in order to see that.
post #52 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinsbane View Post

Will people stop using that macro image as an evidence for image quality? Please? It's silly, misleading, and incomplete.
You know what you see when you look at those monitors from beyond three centimetres? You do not see blurry pixels. You see solid white. Plain white. You cannot make a judgement of image quality from that. Image quality is dependent on accuracy of colour (delta e), contrast ratio, uniformity, correct gamut, motion blur, gamma accuracy, viewing angles, in addition to panel coating.
The only (only!) Thing you can determine from that macro photo is relative strength of AG coatings. Which one is better or worse? You need to take actual photographs of the panel at typical viewing angles in order to see that.
Even then, you don't get the actual image quality. I've had the u2312m and the PCBank. Image quality was actually about the same with the PCbank having slightly better contrast and colors, it's nowhere as near of a huge difference as you claim.
Edited by Eagle1337 - 11/27/12 at 8:01am
post #53 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by MenacingTubaNCX View Post

I addressed the contrast/gamma variances in my first post. Most users do not and never will own a colorimeter, so the calibrated image quality is basically irrelevant and I already stated that there are people who need wide gamut displays. Out-of-the-box colour accuracy is one of the most important aspects of a good display. Many of the non high-end wide (the U2711 is a mid range display, NEC, Eizo and Lacie offer high end wide gamut displays) gamut displays can't display certain colours properly (the most popular being the U2410 and U2711) when using the sRGB mode, even when calibrated.
TFT Centrals calibrated contrast is usually lower the most other sites because he uses a X-rite i1 Pro Spectrophotometer for calibration which has can only read black levels from around 0.19 and up and he uses an i1 display 2 to measure the calibrated black level and brightness which is not meant to be used with LED back-lit displays and the accuracy deteriorates with age. The U2711 FlatPanelsHD reviewed was an anomaly, most other review sites units could only do <800:1 before calibration and 6-700:1 after. Sure it is possible, and likely that there are other U2711's out there like FPHD's, but the majority of review units have low contrast. Playerwares recently reviewed an Asus PA246Q with a 1200:1 contrast ratio! Pretty much every other review unit could only do around 600-700:1. Maybe newer U2711's are allot better
I had a single 60w 6500k light bulb in my room, after calibration (120 nits), once the contrast starts to go below 800:1, blacks start to become grey. Depending on how bright ones room is, low contrast may never be an issue, even when the brightness is cranked.
Taking macro photo's of the AG is the only way to show users the differences between the different types of coatings aside from seeing them in real life. I never said that glossy displays are better, my main point was that semi-glossy coating is far superior to the grainy stuff LG has been using and it has obviously become a major issue, other wise they would never have changed it. HP even changed the coating on the ZR2740W to semi-glossy.
Nothing anyone says can truly be substantiated because there are only around 10 sites which properly review displays and usually only a small handful of reports from users who own colorimeters. How many displays are actually sold? Probably tens of thousands, so 10/10,000 could or maybe even does mean nothing, but when review sites from around the world come up with similar results it becomes easy to assume that many are similar.

Calibrated image quality will always be important. Just because people don't own a calibration tool doesn't mean monitors should be judged solely based on their presets. Especially when the quality can degrade as color temperature and brightness change over time. For an item most people are going to use for several years the presets and factory settings don't cut it. Not to mention that assumes other monitors come pre-calibrated, last time I checked only a handful do and most monitors have horrible presets. I'll need reference on wide gamut panels not being able to display certain colors.

http://tech2.in.com/reviews/24inch-and-above/dell-ultrasharp-u2711-review/313432/1#story
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2922/5
http://www.digitalversus.com/lcd-monitor/dell-u2711-p10392/test.html
I'm not even trying to cherry pick, these are the only ones that actually show calibrated measurements, at least from a shallow search. Of 3 only 1 shows low contrast

Not sure why you're bringing up the PA246Q, I thought you were claiming that standard panels were better than wide gamut. If you're simply saying there are monitors that do certain things better than the U2711 then sure.

I have a 2-tube fluorescent light fixture and I've never had much of a problem with contrast or black depth. Though admittedly I do keep my lights off for color-critical work.

I never said that you said glossy is superior. My point was that some people don't see any problems with AG while others do, same for glossy.

As for the U2711. So far I'm seeing that the contrast is actually quite typical of a decent IPS monitor. You even claimed that TFTcentral's measured contrast is lower than other sites because of the calibration tool used, so they're definitely an outlier
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post #54 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by BababooeyHTJ View Post

Yes, the Dell uses an anti-glare coating and the Catleap doesn't.
Bingo.
post #55 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoxile View Post

.

Learn to snip. Got my main account back.

The U2711 uses CCFL back-lighting, and TFT Central used a Lacie Blue Eye Pro which is compatible. sRGB over saturated reds and neon colours are mentioned in TFT Centrals U2711 review. The i1 display 2's main issue is with LED back-lit displays and that the accuracy deteriorates with age.

Overclock.ru mentions the sRGB colour issues, this has been brought up on [H]ard Forum a bunch in regards to the U2410 and U2711. 700:1-ish was a common value reported on [H]ard Forum too. Other wide gamut display reviews sometimes mention the sRGB issues...am I going to dig them up as well as 2+ year old [H]ard Forum posts? No biggrin.gif

http://www.overclockers.ru/lab/48199_2/Ne_pokinuvshij_stroj._Obzor_i_testirovanie_monitora_Dell_U2711_s_H-IPS_matricej.html#7

Anadandtech measures the minimum and maximum contrast, not the out-of-the box/colour preset contrast and they still don't measure gamma....

If you wanted you could dispute the Dell U2410's contrast too, because there are reviews of units which can do 800:1, but the majority of reviews and user reports put it around 600:1.

Most people will never calibrate their displays, which is why the factory settings are extremely important.

I mentioned the PA24Q because it seems that LG does improve some of their IPS panels over time.
Edited by MenacingTuba - 11/27/12 at 2:29pm
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post #56 of 126
Okayyy, what does any of that have to do with the Korean monitors vs the U2711? Nothing at all other than one is glossy and the other has an AG filter...
Still haven't seen any other sort of testing on any of the Korean monitors other than Anand's review of the Shimian QH270.

@MenacingTuba - You're making gross assumptions which would only really apply to low end displays. We can make the assumption that anyone spending $700+ on a monitor is looking for the best possible image they can buy and will actually calibrate it to their liking.
 
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post #57 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by PR-Imagery View Post

Still haven't seen any other sort of testing on any of the Korean monitors other than Anand's review of the Shimian QH270.

Playerwares has reviewed most of them and ToastyX, 10e and I have all reviewed different models back when they started to become popular.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PR-Imagery View Post

MenacingTuba - You're making gross assumptions which would only really apply to low end displays. We can make the assumption that anyone spending $700+ on a monitor is looking for the best possible image they can buy and will actually calibrate it to their liking.

Second sentence=gross assumption. A colorimeter is required to calibrate a display. Fiddling with the settings or borrowing other settings=guessing. This is why factory settings are extremely important, especially when many displays lack certain settings like gamma settings, have strong colour dominances which can only be fixed by drastically reducing the RGB values and further ruining the image quality and bad gamma which can only be fixed with an ICC profile
Edited by MenacingTuba - 11/27/12 at 5:11pm
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post #58 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by MenacingTuba View Post

.

I must have overlooked it the first time you mentioned it, my mistake. TFT only mentions the oversaturated colors in the sRGB mode preset. Not after calibration.

Going off of the translation I'm inferring it was the same for the guys at overclock.ru. I cant say about hard though since I haven't combed through their thread on the U2711. I'm guessing inaccurate colors were with the preset and before calibration though.

Anand shows the max/min contrast after calibration, which is fine by me; notwithstanding their lack of other details. Actually, looking at some of the other reviews it may be that calibration actually results in lower contrast.

I could argue over the U2410's contrast but that's not really what we're talking about. When it comes down to the hardware I'd rather rely on professional reviews; though I will say Hard's topic on the GW2x50hm series scared me away from the GW2450hm with claims of horrible customer service and bad quality assurance in NA.

Factory presets are good for first impressions. But even then it's only if the presets are good, when often they're not quite so great. Why should the merit of a monitor be based on the factory preset, especially in cases where people use them in the wrong element, like people buying the U2711 for media. It seems you and I are going to have to disagree. I think people should simply buy calibration tools. Though, understandably it may not always provide the best solution for a good viewing experience (coughNvidiacough).
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post #59 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinsbane View Post

Will people stop using that macro image as an evidence for image quality? Please? It's silly, misleading, and incomplete.
you might wanna speak for yourself because i can tell the difference. and the reason why i use a TN panel as my main monitor is because it feels easier on the eyes. text images are sharp. even the new dell u2412m that just came today doesn't match it. i have the zr30w, u2412m (another one coming tomorrow), HP LP2465, HP LA2405wg (TN), and this D24W33 (TN) and none of the IPS panels show better text than the TN panels. IPS panels have their advantages but text sharpness is NOT one of them.
now i don't speak for majority of the ppl because a friend of mine cannot tell the difference in text sharpness btwn my monitors. when i'm busy working on all these monitors at the same time i subconsciously move the window i spend more time on to the V7 D24W33 monitor. i'm still breaking in the u2412m. but i can tell you first hand there's no such thing as an "ultra sharp" ips monitor.
Edited by Remix65 - 11/27/12 at 6:47pm
    
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post #60 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remix65 View Post

you might wanna speak for yourself because i can tell the difference. and the reason why i use a TN panel as my main monitor is because it feels easier on the eyes. text images are sharp. even the new dell u2412m that just came today doesn't match it. i have the zr30w, u2412m (another one coming tomorrow), HP LP2465, HP LA2405wg (TN), and this D24W33 (TN) and none of the IPS panels show better text than the TN panels. IPS panels have their advantages but text sharpness is NOT one of them.
now i don't speak for majority of the ppl because a friend of mine cannot tell the difference in text sharpness btwn my monitors. when i'm busy working on all these monitors at the same time i sub consciously move the window i spend more time on to the V7 D24W33 monitor. i'm still breaking in the u2412m. but i can tell you first hand there's no such thing as an ultra sharp ips monitor.
I'm not saying the macro image isn't useful. It is, however, only useful for one thing, and one thing only: a comparison of the close up view of the antiglare. We might make a reasonable inference as to the relative strength of the antiglare between monitors. That does not mean necessarily mean a monitor with greater close up distortion has a worse image. It has no bearing on contrast, gamut, uniformity, tinting, colour accuracy, viewing angles and other measures of image quality, which can all have as great adverse effect on image quality than just antiglare (which can also have a positive impact on image quality).

If one wants to make the case for superior image quality, as Koehler did, one must make a better comparison than using the macro image. He, just a few posts ago, commented that the S24A350T had better image quality than a Crossover! I'm sorry, but there is no way you can justify that from just that picture. A Crossover has better panel technology, equivalent contrast, better use of colours with less banding, has a higher dot pitch and higher resolution.
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