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[Neowin] Firefox for 64-bit Windows OS canceled - Page 2

post #11 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

Maybe they're just planning on waiting till the time when 64-bit is actually necessary, and have decided to focus on updates to their standard system till then.
And by "then" I mean when the browser is the bottleneck, not the rest of the internet.

Agreed, this is what I came in here to post.

I don't think we'll be waiting "forever" for it, that would be a huge goof on Mozilla's part in the long term. Right now it doesn't matter as much, I'm posting this from the ridiculously fast, sleek 32-bit Chrome.

I would worry if this were Adobe saying "No more 64-bit Photoshop everyone, sorry." laugher.gif
post #12 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stalker View Post

No problem, just use Waterfox.

Well it would be nice to have an official Mozilla supported 64-bit variant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by W4nderer View Post

There is absolutely no point to a 64-bit web browser.

That's your opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by W4nderer View Post

The first point has nothing to do with 64-bit. It could be compiled with the same options if it was a 32-bit program as well. The final point simply says you notice an instant speed boost from being 64-bit. That couldn't be more false. You would only notice a speed boost if the program is working with such huge amounts of data that hit the edge of what a 32-bit CPU can do and requires workarounds to make it work, or if a program uses more memory than can be allocated to to a 32-bit program. Failing either of those two criteria, being arbitrarily 64-bit is actually detrimental to performance due to the additional overhead.

While you're correct that you won't notice an "instant" speed boost (and I think we all know this is exaggeration), the benchmarks are pretty conclusive: http://www.waterfoxproject.org/benchmarks.php

The additional overhead really isn't even that much of a big deal. Additionally, 64-bit registers could be beneficial to the browser now, or even in the future as the web becomes even more so multimedia intensive and interactive. Things like encoders, decoders, etc will benefit from this.

The x86-64 arch supports more general purpose registers allowing possible speed increases for things like tight loops. A possible improvement (and well, I guess the benchmarks do add some potential proof to this) exists because the processor does then not need to continually fetch data from cache or main memory if the data can be stored right in the registers.

Of course the slight disadvantage is the additional memory requirement due to longer pointers and alignment padding but as mentioned above it isn't that much of a big deal. And in fact, running 32-bit software on an x86-64 capable machine on Windows actually has overhead too - there is both a 64-bit and a 32-bit thread stack which uses more memory and reduces the available address space for a 32-bit process on this architecture.

So, in fact, transition to 64-bit can technically give a performance benefit even if the application does not work with huge amounts of data. It's not all about using 34GB of RAM smile.gif A common misnomer is that 64-bit architecture is no better than 32-bit unless the computer has more than 4GB of RAM, or the program uses more than 4GB of RAM (or in practice the address space for a 32-bit process is generally lower due to operating system requirements and address fragmentation). Which brings another point: 64-bit processes will suffer less from address space fragmentation and can take advantage of the low fragmentation heap in Windows (starting with Windows Vista, all heap allocations use the LFH allocator by default).

So, in fact - there is plenty of point to a 64-bit browser.

But of course, as the V8 benchmark shows, there is plenty more to do in creating a 64-bit variant Firefox than simply compiling it with a different compiler and different compiler options... which is why I was hoping for a Mozilla release, because they'd be properly (hopefully!) optimizing the source for 64-bit.
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post #13 of 83
Zero advantage having a 64-bit browser. If you see 64-bit fast and responsive its the placebo effect.
post #14 of 83
Quote:
"I buy a sports car that can go 250mph, but I to only travel at 40 mph. I mean, whats the point in going any faster?"


^this
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post #15 of 83
Browser benchmarks are measurebation.
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post #16 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by meetajhu View Post

Zero advantage having a 64-bit browser. If you see 64-bit fast and responsive its the placebo effect.

By that logic, Microsoft may as well have just designed the Windows kernel to be 64-bit, but then left everything else in user-mode 32-bit.

I don't see much of a noticeable speed boost with Waterfox, but 64-bit computing has been around for a very long time - its about time most common day to day things actually run natively 64-bit on top of a 64-bit operating system + computing architecture.
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post #17 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stalker View Post

No problem, just use Waterfox.

Well it would be nice to have an official Mozilla supported 64-bit variant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by W4nderer View Post

There is absolutely no point to a 64-bit web browser.

That's your opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by W4nderer View Post

The first point has nothing to do with 64-bit. It could be compiled with the same options if it was a 32-bit program as well. The final point simply says you notice an instant speed boost from being 64-bit. That couldn't be more false. You would only notice a speed boost if the program is working with such huge amounts of data that hit the edge of what a 32-bit CPU can do and requires workarounds to make it work, or if a program uses more memory than can be allocated to to a 32-bit program. Failing either of those two criteria, being arbitrarily 64-bit is actually detrimental to performance due to the additional overhead.

While you're correct that you won't notice an "instant" speed boost (and I think we all know this is exaggeration), the benchmarks are pretty conclusive: http://www.waterfoxproject.org/benchmarks.php

The additional overhead really isn't even that much of a big deal. Additionally, 64-bit registers could be beneficial to the browser now, or even in the future as the web becomes even more so multimedia intensive and interactive. Things like encoders, decoders, etc will benefit from this.

The x86-64 arch supports more general purpose registers allowing possible speed increases for things like tight loops. A possible improvement (and well, I guess the benchmarks do add some potential proof to this) exists because the processor does then not need to continually fetch data from cache or main memory if the data can be stored right in the registers.

Of course the slight disadvantage is the additional memory requirement due to longer pointers and alignment padding but as mentioned above it isn't that much of a big deal. And in fact, running 32-bit software on an x86-64 capable machine on Windows actually has overhead too - there is both a 64-bit and a 32-bit thread stack which uses more memory and reduces the available address space for a 32-bit process on this architecture.

So, in fact, transition to 64-bit can technically give a performance benefit even if the application does not work with huge amounts of data. It's not all about using 34GB of RAM smile.gif A common misnomer is that 64-bit architecture is no better than 32-bit unless the computer has more than 4GB of RAM, or the program uses more than 4GB of RAM (or in practice the address space for a 32-bit process is generally lower due to operating system requirements and address fragmentation). Which brings another point: 64-bit processes will suffer less from address space fragmentation and can take advantage of the low fragmentation heap in Windows (starting with Windows Vista, all heap allocations use the LFH allocator by default).

So, in fact - there is plenty of point to a 64-bit browser.

But of course, as the V8 benchmark shows, there is plenty more to do in creating a 64-bit variant Firefox than simply compiling it with a different compiler and different compiler options... which is why I was hoping for a Mozilla release, because they'd be properly (hopefully!) optimizing the source for 64-bit.

Well actually, Waterfox compiles with certain options that use newer instruction sets. It is not inherently faster due to it being 64bit.
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post #18 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by W4nderer View Post

There is absolutely no point to a 64-bit web browser.

Disagree. I have two browsers up (Waterfox and Opera x64) and both are way past the limit for memory on 32-bit processes.

Maybe you have no need for a 64-bit browser, but I do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

Seriously, what's the real advantage?

More tabs, more memory to allocate to cache.

I don't have a disk cache for my browsers, but I allow them to allocate several GiB to memory cache. Saves wear on my SSDs and makes them very responsive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meetajhu View Post

Zero advantage having a 64-bit browser.

Wrong.
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post #19 of 83
Seems like Chrome and I will be friends a bit longer, then.

I've got no reason for it, but I want my applications to be 64bit on my 64bit OS.
   
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post #20 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lime View Post

Well actually, Waterfox compiles with certain options that use newer instruction sets. It is not inherently faster due to it being 64bit.

Fair point, but that wasn't really the main point of my post (which was to outline 64-bit advantages).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Disagree. I have two browsers up (Waterfox and Opera x64) and both are way past the limit for memory on 32-bit processes.
Maybe you have no need for a 64-bit browser, but I do.
More tabs, more memory to allocate to cache.
I don't have a disk cache for my browsers, but I allow them to allocate several GiB to memory cache. Saves wear on my SSDs and makes them very responsive.
Wrong.

+1
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Ol' Sandy
(28 items)
 
"Zeus"
(12 items)
 
Elite Preview
(6 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Xeon E3-1230v3 Gigabyte GA-Z97X-UD5H-BK MSI Gaming GTX 980 Kingston 32GB (4x8) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Plextor PX-256M5S 256GB Samsung EVO 1TB Hitachi HDS721010CLA332 Hitachi HDS723020BLA642 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Hitachi HDS723020BLA642 Hitachi HUA722010CLA330 WDC WD10EARS-00Z5B1 TSSTcorp CDDVDW SH-S223B 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Phanteks PH-TC14PE with TY-140's Lamptron FCv5 (x2) Windows 8 Pro 64-bit Dell U2412M 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Dell U2412M Dell U2212HM Dell U2713HM Topre Realforce 87UB | Ducky DK9087 G2 Pro 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Corsair AX-750 Corsair Obsidian 650D Logitech G700 XTRAC Ripper XXL 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Beyerdynamic DT-770 Pro 250ohm Schiit Bifrost DAC Schiit Asgard 2 HiVi Swan M50W 2.1 
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Intel Xeon E5-2620 Super Micro X9SRL-F-B 128GB 1333MHz LSI 9271-8i 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Software News › [Neowin] Firefox for 64-bit Windows OS canceled