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[Sharp] Sharp's new 4K 32" LCD to cost $5,500 USD - Page 16

post #151 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeing Red View Post

This is a workstation monitor. People need to stop making references to televisions, media availability, and the 'average consumer.' The use criteria for this and a TV are completely different.
BTW, the main motivation for Sharp to create 4K TVs is the use of their parallax barrier based 3-D (glasses-less) in which the resolution is halved.

I agree. I just wanted to point out that we will more than likley see them try and push 4k TV sets.
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post #152 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krymore View Post

They also have 8k. That's 8x the resolution of 1080p. It doesn’t mean the human eye can process those resolution/pixels until you get to a certain distance.

You have severely underestimate the abilities of the eye. I am very confident that the human eye can and will process this 4K resolution very easily at the seating position this monitor would utilise.

Lets do some maths for this monitor to see if you can be enlightened as to just how powerful human vision really is wink.gif

For a pixel-based image to show detail at the limits of human visual acuity, each pixel needs to appear no larger then 0.3 MOA.

The Sharp 4K display dimensions: 698mm × 393mm
Estimation of average seating distance from 32" PC monitor = 50cm

An 698mm x393mm image would give a width and height angle of 69.83 Degrees x 42.91 Degrees when viewed from 50cm (500mm).

To convert these angles to required pixel size, knowing that each pixel must not be larger than 0.3MOA:

Angle (in degrees) x 0.3MOA = pixels

Width: 69.83 x 60/.3 = 13966 pixels
Height: 42.91 x 60/.3 = 8582 pixels

For a 32" monitor's resolution to be high enough to show detail at the limits of human visual acuity at 50cm, the resolution would need to surpass: 13966* 8582.

Or put another way, that 32" monitor being viewed at 50cm would need a total resolution that surpasses almost 120 megapixels - the Sharp 4K UHD monitor has a total resolution that is barely 8.3 megapixels, almost 14.5x lower.


EDIT:
Now lets do a hypothetical and assume Sharp also released a 32" 4K UHD TV as well, using the same display panel:

Hypothetical Sharp 4K UHD TV display dimensions: 698mm × 393mm
Estimation of average seating distance from 32" TV = 2m

An 698mm x393mm image would give a width and height angle of 19.797 Degrees x 11.223 Degrees when viewed from 2m (2000mm).

Angle (in degrees) x 0.3MOA = pixels

Width: 19.797 x 60/.3 = 3959.4 pixels
Height: 11.223 x 60/.3 = 2244.6 pixels

So even for a hypothetical Sharp 32" 4K UHD TV, for the resolution to be high enough to show detail at the limits of human visual acuity at 2m, the resolution would need to surpass: 3959.4 * 2244.6.

So still not quite high enough in resolution at that distance to go beyond the limits of the human eyes wink.gif
Edited by un-nefer - 11/30/12 at 7:23am
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post #153 of 286
Not to get too OT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

Bold: Glad I am not one of those most. tongue.gif
As I say, for television: 120Hz. For games: 60Hz.
Well actually you are.

Because if you were not, you would realise that higher refresh rate is beneficial to gamers as well and you would have said "For games: 120+Hz" instead of the bolded text above .

I guess you still didn't read the part where vega said " At 120hz the number of cursors in your circle doubles," - to put it into something simple to understand:

60Hz allows 60 frames of a game to be show on the display every second
120Hz allows 120 frames of a game to be show on the display every second

So 120Hz allows you to see DOUBLE the amount of frames on the display in any given second. Obviously the higher the refresh rate, the more frames per second you will have the potential of seeing.
Edited by un-nefer - 11/30/12 at 9:50am
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post #154 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-nefer View Post

Not to get too OT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

Bold: Glad I am not one of those most. tongue.gif
As I say, for television: 120Hz. For games: 60Hz.
Well actually you are.

Because if you were not, you would realise that higher refresh rate is beneficial to gamers as well and you would have said "For games: 120+Hz" instead of the bolded text above .

I guess you still didn't read the part where vega said " At 120hz the number of cursors in your circle doubles," - to put it into something simple to understand:

60Hz allows 60 frames of a game to be show on the display every second
120Hz allows 120 frames of a game to be show on the display every second

So 120Hz allows you to see DOUBLE the amount of frames on the display in any given second. Obviously the higher the refresh rate, the more frames per second you will have the potential of seeing.

You claim I am part of the most and then you continue with accusations with no backings.
Do you honestly think you can tell the difference between 1/60th and 1/120th of a second? You know that micro second ticker on stop-watches? Yeah, that is a blur to people with 20/20 vision, so if we as human beings cannot even notice 1/100th of a second, [;ease provide proof that some people will be able to see 1/60th of a frame. I barely saw 1/20th of a second (1 frame from 20FPS) and I had to work hard to notice it BTW I have 20/20 vision, if not slightly better.
post #155 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

You claim I am part of the most and then you continue with accusations with no backings.
Do you honestly think you can tell the difference between 1/60th and 1/120th of a second? You know that micro second ticker on stop-watches? Yeah, that is a blur to people with 20/20 vision, so if we as human beings cannot even notice 1/100th of a second, [;ease provide proof that some people will be able to see 1/60th of a frame. I barely saw 1/20th of a second (1 frame from 20FPS) and I had to work hard to notice it BTW I have 20/20 vision, if not slightly better.

There is a difference from being able to see a distinct frame, and not being able to see that your framerate isn't smooth. At 60 fps certain frames will drop and make things look funky, you eyes will tell its not perfectly smooth. If you honestly look at a 60 fps monitor and a 120 fps monitor side by side and couldn't tell the difference during a scene with any movement, than lucky you, save your money and go with 60 fps. Many can tell the difference between 60 fps and 120 fps.

Also, people need to double check the article. This is not a TV. This is not to be used 15 feet away from you as a TV. It is designed as a workstation monitor. It will be used fairly close to you, and you will see the difference in resolution. Especially for things like text and very detailed pictures. I never understood peoples hate for driving technology forward. No, our current GPU's probably can't drive 3 of these monitors. No, we don't have movies that can fully use the resolution of these monitors. No, we don't have a format that can easily deliver blu ray movies at this resolution. We don't have the internet speeds to stream movies at this resolution in most of the world. But that doesn't mean that eventually we wont. Things move forward together. Eventually something has to move forward and drive everything else forward, we should be happy these display companies are pushing the boundary and trying to improve.
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post #156 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

You claim I am part of the most and then you continue with accusations with no backings.
Do you honestly think you can tell the difference between 1/60th and 1/120th of a second? You know that micro second ticker on stop-watches? Yeah, that is a blur to people with 20/20 vision, so if we as human beings cannot even notice 1/100th of a second, [;ease provide proof that some people will be able to see 1/60th of a frame. I barely saw 1/20th of a second (1 frame from 20FPS) and I had to work hard to notice it BTW I have 20/20 vision, if not slightly better.
Look from one side of the room to the other quickly. Now do that in a game at 60Hz. Notice a difference? You should be able to see the lack of smoothness in the image. When you switch to 120Hz, the image should look less choppy.
post #157 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by sikkly View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

You claim I am part of the most and then you continue with accusations with no backings.
Do you honestly think you can tell the difference between 1/60th and 1/120th of a second? You know that micro second ticker on stop-watches? Yeah, that is a blur to people with 20/20 vision, so if we as human beings cannot even notice 1/100th of a second, [;ease provide proof that some people will be able to see 1/60th of a frame. I barely saw 1/20th of a second (1 frame from 20FPS) and I had to work hard to notice it BTW I have 20/20 vision, if not slightly better.

There is a difference from being able to see a distinct frame, and not being able to see that your framerate isn't smooth. At 60 fps certain frames will drop and make things look funky, you eyes will tell its not perfectly smooth. If you honestly look at a 60 fps monitor and a 120 fps monitor side by side and couldn't tell the difference during a scene with any movement, than lucky you, save your money and go with 60 fps. Many can tell the difference between 60 fps and 120 fps.

Also, people need to double check the article. This is not a TV. This is not to be used 15 feet away from you as a TV. It is designed as a workstation monitor. It will be used fairly close to you, and you will see the difference in resolution. Especially for things like text and very detailed pictures. I never understood peoples hate for driving technology forward. No, our current GPU's probably can't drive 3 of these monitors. No, we don't have movies that can fully use the resolution of these monitors. No, we don't have a format that can easily deliver blu ray movies at this resolution. We don't have the internet speeds to stream movies at this resolution in most of the world. But that doesn't mean that eventually we wont. Things move forward together. Eventually something has to move forward and drive everything else forward, we should be happy these display companies are pushing the boundary and trying to improve.

Correction, many can tell when something is not stable. Very very few can see 1/60th of a second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Vanelay View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

You claim I am part of the most and then you continue with accusations with no backings.
Do you honestly think you can tell the difference between 1/60th and 1/120th of a second? You know that micro second ticker on stop-watches? Yeah, that is a blur to people with 20/20 vision, so if we as human beings cannot even notice 1/100th of a second, [;ease provide proof that some people will be able to see 1/60th of a frame. I barely saw 1/20th of a second (1 frame from 20FPS) and I had to work hard to notice it BTW I have 20/20 vision, if not slightly better.

Look from one side of the room to the other quickly. Now do that in a game at 60Hz. Notice a difference? You should be able to see the lack of smoothness in the image. When you switch to 120Hz, the image should look less choppy.

Look from one side of the room to the other quickly. Notice how 98% of the motion is a blur?
At 20FPS in Fallout New Vegas (on console) on a 32 inch display with sensitivity racked up all the way, full speed, UNLESS you are ABSOLUTELY fixed on a single object, you will not notice the 1cm frame change. That's 20FPS though. 60FPS? ~3mm change on a 32 inch TV, miniscule change. Not everyone here uses 32 inch displays for gaming though. Some use 24 inches, some use 60+ inches. So if 60FPS is a 3mm change on a 32 inch display, mathematically there will be around a 6mm frame change running at 60FPS on a 60 inch display, that can be noticeable, IF you have above average eyesight and are close to the display.
post #158 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

Correction, many can tell when something is not stable. Very very few can see 1/60th of a second.
By the way, those videos support me still... You should be the one to stop.
Look from one side of the room to the other quickly. Notice how 98% of the motion is a blur?
At 20FPS in Fallout New Vegas (on console) on a 32 inch display with sensitivity racked up all the way, full speed, UNLESS you are ABSOLUTELY fixed on a single object, you will not notice the 1cm frame change. That's 20FPS though. 60FPS? ~3mm change on a 32 inch TV, miniscule change. Not everyone here uses 32 inch displays for gaming though. Some use 24 inches, some use 60+ inches. So if 60FPS is a 3mm change on a 32 inch display, mathematically there will be around a 6mm frame change running at 60FPS on a 60 inch display, that can be noticeable, IF you have above average eyesight and are close to the display.

Wait so you're saying you have to focus to tell the difference between 20 and 60 fps? If so you need to be carted to the crazy house or be declared unfit to drive or something... otherwise I have no idea what you're trying to say.
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post #159 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

Look from one side of the room to the other quickly. Notice how 98% of the motion is a blur?
At 20FPS in Fallout New Vegas (on console) on a 32 inch display with sensitivity racked up all the way, full speed, UNLESS you are ABSOLUTELY fixed on a single object, you will not notice the 1cm frame change. That's 20FPS though. 60FPS? ~3mm change on a 32 inch TV, miniscule change. Not everyone here uses 32 inch displays for gaming though. Some use 24 inches, some use 60+ inches. So if 60FPS is a 3mm change on a 32 inch display, mathematically there will be around a 6mm frame change running at 60FPS on a 60 inch display, that can be noticeable, IF you have above average eyesight and are close to the display.
As far as I can tell, most of the motion is blur because you can't focus on it properly.

Let's take a mouse pointer for example. If I move my mouse pointer across my 46" 60Hz TV from at least 16 feet away, I can still tell that the mouse movement is no fluid. When I move my finger across my vision space at the same speed, I cannot see a trail of distinct points, as I can see with my mouse.

I also tried this:
http://boallen.com/fps-compare.html
You can't really see the same effect in this example, but you can definitely tell that the 60 FPS feels a lot smoother than the other refresh rates, with my glasses off, standing 25 feet away. The 60 FPS still didn't feel quite right, so I assume that higher refresh rates will smoothen it even more.

I've also never seen a 120Hz TV, but I have seen my friend's 120Hz monitor, and I can tell you that it feels smoother than a 60Hz one.
post #160 of 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

Correction, many can tell when something is not stable. Very very few can see 1/60th of a second.
By the way, those videos support me still... You should be the one to stop.
Look from one side of the room to the other quickly. Notice how 98% of the motion is a blur?
At 20FPS in Fallout New Vegas (on console) on a 32 inch display with sensitivity racked up all the way, full speed, UNLESS you are ABSOLUTELY fixed on a single object, you will not notice the 1cm frame change. That's 20FPS though. 60FPS? ~3mm change on a 32 inch TV, miniscule change. Not everyone here uses 32 inch displays for gaming though. Some use 24 inches, some use 60+ inches. So if 60FPS is a 3mm change on a 32 inch display, mathematically there will be around a 6mm frame change running at 60FPS on a 60 inch display, that can be noticeable, IF you have above average eyesight and are close to the display.

Wait so you're no saying you have to focus to tell the difference between 20 and 60 fps.? If so you need to be carted to the crazy house or be declared unfit to drive or something... otherwise I have no idea what you're trying to say.

This is a base test on Fallout New Vegas using a controller. Not everything will be the same velocity.
20FPS on 32 inch display = 1 inch frame change.
60FPS on 32 inch display = ~3mm frame change.
Following? I hope so.
At 24 inches, 60FPS = ~2mm frame change.
At 64 inches, 60FPS = ~6mm frame change.
120FPS, 24 inches = <1mm frame change.
As I have been saying, relative to the average display size. FOR GAMES, 60Hz is more than enough. Not everyone has above average vision. For television, there is better stability with 120Hz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Vanelay View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratrooper1n0 View Post

Look from one side of the room to the other quickly. Notice how 98% of the motion is a blur?
At 20FPS in Fallout New Vegas (on console) on a 32 inch display with sensitivity racked up all the way, full speed, UNLESS you are ABSOLUTELY fixed on a single object, you will not notice the 1cm frame change. That's 20FPS though. 60FPS? ~3mm change on a 32 inch TV, miniscule change. Not everyone here uses 32 inch displays for gaming though. Some use 24 inches, some use 60+ inches. So if 60FPS is a 3mm change on a 32 inch display, mathematically there will be around a 6mm frame change running at 60FPS on a 60 inch display, that can be noticeable, IF you have above average eyesight and are close to the display.
As far as I can tell, most of the motion is blur because you can't focus on it properly.

Let's take a mouse pointer for example. If I move my mouse pointer across my 46" 60Hz TV from at least 16 feet away, I can still tell that the mouse movement is no fluid. When I move my finger across my vision space at the same speed, I cannot see a trail of distinct points, as I can see with my mouse.

I also tried this:
http://boallen.com/fps-compare.html
You can't really see the same effect in this example, but you can definitely tell that the 60 FPS feels a lot smoother than the other refresh rates, with my glasses off, standing 25 feet away. The 60 FPS still didn't feel quite right, so I assume that higher refresh rates will smoothen it even more.

I've also never seen a 120Hz TV, but I have seen my friend's 120Hz monitor, and I can tell you that it feels smoother than a 60Hz one.

That test would be fine in an ideal environment where the computer can keep it stable, but all three drop below 15FPS on my computer.
Yes, because all you see is a blur, unless you did it slowly.
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