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How important is calculus when programming? - Page 6

post #51 of 68
In some shape or form, Mathematics is everywhere.
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post #52 of 68
It's more the problem solving skills associated with mathematicians that you need, rather than actual mathematical ability...
    
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post #53 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

That's a very short-sighted approach. When do you stop?

Why even bother getting a CS or CE degree? Just go to vocational school or take a course to learn "Java" or "C++".

Actually, you may not even need all the features of a language.... so as a programmer why learn languages?

Just go take a philosophy class in Logic.


There's difference among "someone who can write a program", a "progammer", and a "good programmer". It's not just about knowledge of a language that makes a good programmer.


Here's a dirty little secret..... most of the information that you learn in college is out-of-date, a subset of a bigger world, or just irrelevant to work. However, college does train you to think and exposes you to different concepts. That's what college is really for. Generally, you learn real-world skills in the real-world at a job.



Personally, I have dual degrees in CE and Economics. My understand of economics absolutely gives me an edge that I apply to software development, hardware purchases, and system architecture.

And this is pretty much my whole point. WHY do we do this? What is the point? To prove that someone is willing to pay a couple thousand dollars and years of their life to get a piece of paper saying "I still don't really know anything relevant, but I can recite a dead language's alphabet backwards if you really want"?

People should go to school because they actually care to learn. Maybe that's my problem. I know I could learn just as much in a 10th of the time for free in by bedroom, but some tool with no useful knowledge and a diploma would get the job and not me. Thus I'm in college, wasting away my potential, and knowing it.
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post #54 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

And this is pretty much my whole point. WHY do we do this? What is the point? To prove that someone is willing to pay a couple thousand dollars and years of their life to get a piece of paper saying "I still don't really know anything relevant, but I can recite a dead language's alphabet backwards if you really want"?

People should go to school because they actually care to learn. Maybe that's my problem. I know I could learn just as much in a 10th of the time for free in by bedroom, but some tool with no useful knowledge and a diploma would get the job and not me. Thus I'm in college, wasting away my potential, and knowing it.

Your work life will be the same. You'll have to do things you don't really enjoy and might not be particularly skilled in.
Having a college degree shows the employer that you have the patience and the determination to fulfill varied tasks that you might not have previous experience in, simply because you have the skills to easily adapt to them.
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post #55 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

And this is pretty much my whole point. WHY do we do this? What is the point? To prove that someone is willing to pay a couple thousand dollars and years of their life to get a piece of paper saying "I still don't really know anything relevant, but I can recite a dead language's alphabet backwards if you really want"?

People should go to school because they actually care to learn. Maybe that's my problem. I know I could learn just as much in a 10th of the time for free in by bedroom, but some tool with no useful knowledge and a diploma would get the job and not me. Thus I'm in college, wasting away my potential, and knowing it.

The same reason you learn the basics of anything. You have to start somewhere. Granted programming is a little weird because it changes at a relatively fast pace. You are paying to learn principles and learning to solve many different types of problems. Usually when people teach themselves something they only cover what they feel they need to know to solve a specific problem. You won't have the same exposure to varied topics and problems that you should be seeing in school. For the most part someone who has that piece of paper can do their job along with quiet a few others. They will also be able to converse and work with others solving many things. With that said if you aren't working on different things within your program then your school is failing in proper instruction.

I do fully understand that there are also people who have the ability to teach themselves programming skills. I know some fantastic programmers that have never take a single course in it. The only reason that they are good at is because they are great problem solvers. As an employer though if faced with a someone with a couple years experience and someone with a degree; guess who I am going to pick? The one with the degree because I won't usually take a chance on someone being a good problem solver. Those natural problem solvers are few and far between though and atleast with the degree holder I can feel more confident about what they know and be assured they have the ability to learn something new and be able to apply it.

A second point I feel I must make (and I mean absolutely no disrespect by it honestly) is that if you feel you are wasting your potential then most likely you are. The only person you can blame for that though is yourself. College courses should be about learning how to learn, not learning something for the sake of it. The basic topics give you the foundation to expand and grow upon. They can't teach you everything you will ever see. That challenge is left for you to conquer. When I teach I inform my students that I expect them to do more than what I teach. Even now with courses I take I look at what we are doing in the class and try to apply that to something larger.

I do understand where you are coming from. I spent my first two years in college (with a total of 9 years now) with a similar attitude towards some classes. As I grew as a student and academic I see their usefulness though and I am glad that I took them. Having also been part of committees that design student degree programs trust me that classes are not chosen as mandatory unless industry and academia deem it to be vital. There is a lot of debate about classes that are chosen as mandatory requirements.
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post #56 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylepdalton View Post

The same reason you learn the basics of anything. You have to start somewhere. Granted programming is a little weird because it changes at a relatively fast pace. You are paying to learn principles and learning to solve many different types of problems. Usually when people teach themselves something they only cover what they feel they need to know to solve a specific problem. You won't have the same exposure to varied topics and problems that you should be seeing in school. For the most part someone who has that piece of paper can do their job along with quiet a few others. They will also be able to converse and work with others solving many things. With that said if you aren't working on different things within your program then your school is failing in proper instruction.

I do fully understand that there are also people who have the ability to teach themselves programming skills. I know some fantastic programmers that have never take a single course in it. The only reason that they are good at is because they are great problem solvers. As an employer though if faced with a someone with a couple years experience and someone with a degree; guess who I am going to pick? The one with the degree because I won't usually take a chance on someone being a good problem solver. Those natural problem solvers are few and far between though and atleast with the degree holder I can feel more confident about what they know and be assured they have the ability to learn something new and be able to apply it.

A second point I feel I must make (and I mean absolutely no disrespect by it honestly) is that if you feel you are wasting your potential then most likely you are. The only person you can blame for that though is yourself. College courses should be about learning how to learn, not learning something for the sake of it. The basic topics give you the foundation to expand and grow upon. They can't teach you everything you will ever see. That challenge is left for you to conquer. When I teach I inform my students that I expect them to do more than what I teach. Even now with courses I take I look at what we are doing in the class and try to apply that to something larger.

I do understand where you are coming from. I spent my first two years in college (with a total of 9 years now) with a similar attitude towards some classes. As I grew as a student and academic I see their usefulness though and I am glad that I took them. Having also been part of committees that design student degree programs trust me that classes are not chosen as mandatory unless industry and academia deem it to be vital. There is a lot of debate about classes that are chosen as mandatory requirements.

Perhaps it's not the classes themselves so much as the professors teaching them, and their level of control over the class content. I can't even begin to tell you the number of classes I've had where I was teaching the professor, and not the other way around.
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post #57 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

Perhaps it's not the classes themselves so much as the professors teaching them, and their level of control over the class content. I can't even begin to tell you the number of classes I've had where I was teaching the professor, and not the other way around.

That happens from time to time. It shouldn't but it does unfortunately. If a majority of classes are like that for you then I would be looking for a different program elsewhere. The only way to grow is to be challenged. If you are really adventurous you can also ask the professor, your advisor, and/or dean of the department if you can skip courses by taking the final exams for a course. That will sometimes get you out of a required class freeing up hours to take more challenging electives.
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post #58 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylepdalton View Post

That happens from time to time. It shouldn't but it does unfortunately. If a majority of classes are like that for you then I would be looking for a different program elsewhere. The only way to grow is to be challenged. If you are really adventurous you can also ask the professor, your advisor, and/or dean of the department if you can skip courses by taking the final exams for a course. That will sometimes get you out of a required class freeing up hours to take more challenging electives.

Yeah, I'm starting to do that now. My first two years that was not an option due to college policy.

What's really frustrating is when the professor not only is clueless, but will actually give out blatantly false information and stand by it. I had a literature professor tell me "ambidextrous" wasn't a real word. Opened the dictionary to it in front of him and he told me it didn't count because it wasn't the latest edition .rolleyes.gif
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post #59 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

And this is pretty much my whole point. WHY do we do this? What is the point? To prove that someone is willing to pay a couple thousand dollars and years of their life to get a piece of paper saying "I still don't really know anything relevant, but I can recite a dead language's alphabet backwards if you really want"?

People should go to school because they actually care to learn. Maybe that's my problem. I know I could learn just as much in a 10th of the time for free in by bedroom, but some tool with no useful knowledge and a diploma would get the job and not me. Thus I'm in college, wasting away my potential, and knowing it.

Guy walks in from the street and says give me a job. How do I know he can do the job? Does he have work experience? Does he have certs? Does he have a degree?

I mean people can bypass formal education and degrees to still advance.... getting in the door is the problem. Unless they make a name for themselves develop something on their own or know someone personally, it's hard to break through.

How do I know someone is qualified? How can I trust what he/she says and what they put on their resume is real?
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Once again...
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post #60 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Guy walks in from the street and says give me a job. How do I know he can do the job? Does he have work experience? Does he have certs? Does he have a degree?

I mean people can bypass formal education and degrees to still advance.... getting in the door is the problem. Unless they make a name for themselves develop something on their own or know someone personally, it's hard to break through.

How do I know someone is qualified? How can I trust what he/she says and what they put on their resume is real?

A relatively good app in an app store (Google, Apple, Windows) is usually enough for me tongue.gif
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