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Bad HDD? - Page 3

post #21 of 29
Thread Starter 
Could this be causing my lags problem? And does this mean that it's 100% the HDD? Or should I try another sata port and another HDD first?
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post #22 of 29
You can try another SATA port, but it's highly likely it's the drive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T.#Known_ATA_S.M.A.R.T._attributes

Btw, you should be using the Intel ports. They have more than enough bandwidth for current drives, and have lower access times. They're actually faster than the Marvell ones. thumb.gif

I would test the Intel ports just because I've heard of those Marvell controllers spitting out all sorts of crazy errors and problems. rolleyes.gif But if Wikipedia is to be believed, it's a problem with the drive.

Yes, it could be causing your lag problem. Whenever a read or write fails (usually due to a bad sector on the platter surface), for desktop drives it takes about 30 seconds for them to start responding again. This particular error is new to me, so I'm curious how long it's locking up for you.
     
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post #23 of 29
Thread Starter 
Hey sorry for late reply, if you mean by " I'm curious how long it's locking up for you ", the amount of time of the FPS drop or the pausing, then it's like 1 or 2 secs max.
Just checked today and ultra DMA crc errors increased to 250 :S.
What should I check while using the Intel port?
Thanks for the help, +repped.
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post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skorpian View Post

Just checked today and ultra DMA crc errors increased to 250 :S.
What should I check while using the Intel port?
Thanks for the help, +repped.
You should check and see if they continue going up, or stop going up. If they stop and hold at whatever values they're at, then in a month or two you can declare the drive healthy. If they continue going up, then the drive has a problem and will need to be replaced.

Since day 1 you've had the lag issue? Try enabling all the write caching tickboxes, then report back on whether it helped at all:
http://www.windowsreference.com/windows-server-2008/enable-disk-write-caching-to-improve-performance-in-windows-7-windows-server-2008/
     
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post #25 of 29
Thread Starter 
Hmm ok thanks for the reply but this writing eache thingy seems a bit too risky, don't you think? If the power goes out it could cause data loss.
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post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skorpian View Post

Hmm ok thanks for the reply but this writing eache thingy seems a bit too risky, don't you think? If the power goes out it could cause data loss.
Nah. Seagate basically forces it enabled on all their drives.

If the power goes out, run chkdsk right after. If you BSOD, run chkdsk right after. wink.gif

Most of the time the write cache isn't very large - 0 to 10ms. It's only when there's a heavy burst of writing (which some game engines stupidly do at random) that you get a bigger backlog and delay - because by default Windows will wait for the drive to report back that the write completed. And that's where WD and Seagate drives seem to differ. The new Seagates accept the writes into drive cache and report back to Windows that they completed - no delay, but possible data loss on power failure. WD's drives don't seem to, but if you enable that tickbox then Windows will allow writes to stack up a bit before it pauses and waits for them to complete.

This gives them slightly different behaviour - first, the Seagate drives are immune to BSOD dataloss, because while bluescreening, they are emptying their caches to platter. The only stuff you lose is whatever wasn't yet written - so if Office 2013 got 50% through zipping a docx file and then invoked some DLL and crashed your computer, you get 50% of the file properly written. Good job, hard drive. thumb.gif With a WD drive and that tickbox enabled, in the same situation you would likely get a smaller percentage of the file.

Now, where the forced-in-firmware caching is bad is your OS doesn't really know when there's stuff still waiting to be written to platter. It can issue a sync or flush command to tell the drive to empty its caches to platter, but some drives even complete those instantly. rolleyes.gif

I have two businesses that I regularly service that were plagued by this problem - regular shutdowns resulted in a dirty filesystem, and chkdsk had to be run. It was damn annoying, because that also introduced other problems - most automated network backup solutions flip from incremental to full sector-by-sector backups when they detect a dirty filesystem, so their onsite backup NAS was getting clogged almost monthly. A WD drive in the same situation can only have the Windows write buffer enabled, so Windows is obviously going to wait for it all to be written before it clicks the power off - thus, no dirty filesystem.

In the end I had to swap out the Seagate drives from these businesses' Dell desktops with WD drives. Cloned them over and never had another issue. The Seagates are also still working fine, no bad/reallocated sectors, no other problems... more than 12 months later.

So what's safer? In my experience OS-level write caching sure beats non-BBU device-level write caching as far as irritation levels go. Device-level battery backed is the absolute best, but I disagree that device-level non-battery-backed is "good". I think I'd relegate it to third place, behind OS-level write caching.

Some people here might disagree, but I think the majority of filesystem software engineers may not. That's likely why Linux/OSX/etc. enable OS-level write caching by default. It's only Windows that is holding out... primarily because of the bad reputation Microsoft got when they enabled it in one of the later DOS versions - and then "corrected" when people complained. (Stupid devs. tongue.gif There's a flush command for a reason, you noobs!) It's just mind boggling that a bad experience from over 20 years ago is still dictating their design choices. I might not have it as the default setting on servers, but... Laptops? The new wave of tablets? These computers have UPS's built right in. Come on! tongue.gif

Of course, the most ideal solution is to integrate it all at the device level.

With current technology they can use supercapacitors and NAND - when the power cuts out, the cache is immediately flushed from memory to NAND, then restored when power is restored. That's what lots of the high end RAID controllers do now. ($1000+) The next advance will be RAM that doesn't lose its data on power failure, but it'll be expensive at first, so it'll only be used as enterprise drive cache. Then eventually they'll replace RAM in computers with that stuff, and the new RAM will be persistent storage just like HDDs and NAND are right now. It'll cost a pretty penny at first, but I'm sure some people will choose to go from 512GB powerhouse computers (yes, RAM) to ~8GB persistent RAM just for the persistence on power loss. (That should be approximately the right spread - judging by how HDDs and SSDs started.)

Oh my - I have rambled. My apologies if I flattened anyone!

Edit: Corrected a spelling mistake. Looks like I only made one obvious one.

The first reader to reply liked my ramble. biggrin.gif
Edited by Kramy - 12/5/12 at 12:28am
     
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post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kramy View Post

Nah. Seagate basically forces it enabled on all their drives.
If the power goes out, run chkdsk right after. If you BSOD, run chkdsk right after. wink.gif
Most of the time the write cache isn't very large - 0 to 10ms. It's only when there's a heavy burst of writing (which some game engines stupidly do at random) that you get a bigger backlog and delay - because by default Windows will wait for the drive to report back that the write completed. And that's where WD and Seagate drives seem to differ. The new Seagates accept the writes into drive cache and report back to Windows that they completed - no delay, but possible data loss on power failure. WD's drives don't seem to, but if you enable that tickbox then Windows will allow writes to stack up a bit before it pauses and waits for them to complete.
This gives them slightly different behaviour - first, the Seagate drives are immune to BSOD dataloss, because while bluescreening, they are emptying their caches to platter. The only stuff you lose is whatever wasn't yet written - so if Office 2013 got 50% through zipping a docx file and then invoked some DLL and crashed your computer, you get 50% of the file properly written. Good job, hard drive. thumb.gif With a WD drive and that tickbox enabled, in the same situation you would likely get a smaller percentage of the file.
Now, where the forced-in-firmware caching is bad is your OS doesn't really know when there's stuff still waiting to be written to platter. It can issue a sync or flush command to tell the drive to empty its caches to platter, but some drives even complete those instantly. rolleyes.gif
I have two businesses that I regularly service that were plagued by this problem - regular shutdowns resulted in a dirty filesystem, and chkdsk had to be run. It was damn annoying, because that also introduced other problems - most automated network backup solutions flip from increment to full sector-by-sector backups when they detect a dirty filesystem, so their onsite backup NAS was getting clogged almost monthly. A WD drive in the same situation can only have the Windows write buffer enabled, so Windows is obviously going to wait for it all to be written before it clicks the power off - thus, no dirty filesystem.
In the end I had to swap out the Seagate drives from these businesses' Dell desktops with WD drives. Cloned them over and never had another issue. The Seagates are also still working fine, no bad/reallocated sectors, no other problems... more than 12 months later.
So what's safer? In my experience OS-level write caching sure beats non-BBU device-level write caching as far as irritation levels go. Device-level battery backed is the absolute best, but I disagree that device-level non-battery-backed is "good". I think I'd relegate it to third place, behind OS-level write caching.
Some people here might disagree, but I think the majority of filesystem software engineers may not. That's likely why Linux/OSX/etc. enable OS-level write caching by default. It's only Windows that is holding out... primarily because of the bad reputation Microsoft got when they enabled it in one of the later DOS versions - and then "corrected" when people complained. (Stupid devs. tongue.gif There's a flush command for a reason, you noobs!) It's just mind boggling that a bad experience from over 20 years ago is still dictating their design choices. I might not have it as the default setting on servers, but... Laptops? The new wave of tablets? These computers have UPS's built right in. Come on! tongue.gif
Of course, the most ideal solution is to integrate it all at the device level.
With current technology they can use supercapacitors and NAND - when the power cuts out, the cache is immediately flushed from memory to NAND, then restored when power is restored. That's what lots of the high end RAID controllers do now. ($1000+) The next advance will be RAM that doesn't lose its data on power failure, but it'll be expensive at first, so it'll only be used as enterprise drive cache. Then eventually they'll replace RAM in computers with that stuff, and the new RAM will be persistent storage just like HDDs and NAND are right now. It'll cost a pretty penny at first, but I'm sure some people will choose to go from 512GB powerhouse computers (yes, RAM) to ~8GB persistent RAM just for the persistence on power loss. (That should be approximately the right spread - judging by how HDDs and SSDs started.)
Oh my - I have rambled. My apologies if I flattened anyone!

I always learn something new from your posts everytime. Good to see guys like you around thumb.gif
:D
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:D
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post #28 of 29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kramy View Post

Nah. Seagate basically forces it enabled on all their drives.
If the power goes out, run chkdsk right after. If you BSOD, run chkdsk right after. wink.gif
Most of the time the write cache isn't very large - 0 to 10ms. It's only when there's a heavy burst of writing (which some game engines stupidly do at random) that you get a bigger backlog and delay - because by default Windows will wait for the drive to report back that the write completed. And that's where WD and Seagate drives seem to differ. The new Seagates accept the writes into drive cache and report back to Windows that they completed - no delay, but possible data loss on power failure. WD's drives don't seem to, but if you enable that tickbox then Windows will allow writes to stack up a bit before it pauses and waits for them to complete.
This gives them slightly different behaviour - first, the Seagate drives are immune to BSOD dataloss, because while bluescreening, they are emptying their caches to platter. The only stuff you lose is whatever wasn't yet written - so if Office 2013 got 50% through zipping a docx file and then invoked some DLL and crashed your computer, you get 50% of the file properly written. Good job, hard drive. thumb.gif With a WD drive and that tickbox enabled, in the same situation you would likely get a smaller percentage of the file.
Now, where the forced-in-firmware caching is bad is your OS doesn't really know when there's stuff still waiting to be written to platter. It can issue a sync or flush command to tell the drive to empty its caches to platter, but some drives even complete those instantly. rolleyes.gif
I have two businesses that I regularly service that were plagued by this problem - regular shutdowns resulted in a dirty filesystem, and chkdsk had to be run. It was damn annoying, because that also introduced other problems - most automated network backup solutions flip from incremental to full sector-by-sector backups when they detect a dirty filesystem, so their onsite backup NAS was getting clogged almost monthly. A WD drive in the same situation can only have the Windows write buffer enabled, so Windows is obviously going to wait for it all to be written before it clicks the power off - thus, no dirty filesystem.
In the end I had to swap out the Seagate drives from these businesses' Dell desktops with WD drives. Cloned them over and never had another issue. The Seagates are also still working fine, no bad/reallocated sectors, no other problems... more than 12 months later.
So what's safer? In my experience OS-level write caching sure beats non-BBU device-level write caching as far as irritation levels go. Device-level battery backed is the absolute best, but I disagree that device-level non-battery-backed is "good". I think I'd relegate it to third place, behind OS-level write caching.
Some people here might disagree, but I think the majority of filesystem software engineers may not. That's likely why Linux/OSX/etc. enable OS-level write caching by default. It's only Windows that is holding out... primarily because of the bad reputation Microsoft got when they enabled it in one of the later DOS versions - and then "corrected" when people complained. (Stupid devs. tongue.gif There's a flush command for a reason, you noobs!) It's just mind boggling that a bad experience from over 20 years ago is still dictating their design choices. I might not have it as the default setting on servers, but... Laptops? The new wave of tablets? These computers have UPS's built right in. Come on! tongue.gif
Of course, the most ideal solution is to integrate it all at the device level.
With current technology they can use supercapacitors and NAND - when the power cuts out, the cache is immediately flushed from memory to NAND, then restored when power is restored. That's what lots of the high end RAID controllers do now. ($1000+) The next advance will be RAM that doesn't lose its data on power failure, but it'll be expensive at first, so it'll only be used as enterprise drive cache. Then eventually they'll replace RAM in computers with that stuff, and the new RAM will be persistent storage just like HDDs and NAND are right now. It'll cost a pretty penny at first, but I'm sure some people will choose to go from 512GB powerhouse computers (yes, RAM) to ~8GB persistent RAM just for the persistence on power loss. (That should be approximately the right spread - judging by how HDDs and SSDs started.)
Oh my - I have rambled. My apologies if I flattened anyone!
Edit: Corrected a spelling mistake. Looks like I only made one obvious one.
The first reader to reply liked my ramble. biggrin.gif
Okay, to be honest I didn't understand most of that XD. Sorry but I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to hardware lol. So, in short, I should enable writing cache without fear? Or still I could lose info?
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post #29 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skorpian View Post

Okay, to be honest I didn't understand most of that XD. Sorry but I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to hardware lol. So, in short, I should enable writing cache without fear? Or still I could lose info?
You can always lose info.

I'd enable it, but keep in mind that if you have a BSOD or power failure, you need to run chkdsk on your drive. Actually, I run it about once per month just to catch things, but in the 2+ years I've been using this setting, I haven't yet had chkdsk find any problems.
     
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FX-8350 @ 4.6ghz 1.425v Sabertooth 990FX Zotac GTX 1070 Amp! 32GB (4x8GB) Kingston Fury 1866mhz CL10 1T 1.5v 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Hitachi 2TB - HDS723020BLA64 Crucial M500 960GB - CT960M500SSD1 WD 4TB Black - WD4001FAEX WD 4TB Black - WD4001FAEX 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Seagate 2TB - ST2000DM001 WD 640GB Black - WD6401AALS Seagate 6TB - ST6000DM001 Micron M500 - MTFDDAK480MAV 
Optical DriveOptical DriveOptical DriveOptical Drive
Pioneer DVR-115DBK Samsung SH-S243D/BEBE LG GH22NS90 Lite-On EBAU108 External DVD 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
Noctua NH-D15 Fractal Design 140mm Fan - FD-FAN-140 Fractal Design 120mm Fan - FD-FAN-120 Windows 7 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Ubuntu 14.04 LTS Samsung 2343BWX 23" (2048x1152) BenQ GW2765HT 27" IPS LCD Monitor (2560x1440) Genius Keyboard KB-G235 PA 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Seasonic Platinum 1000w PSU - SS-1000XP Fractal Design Define R5 Steelseries Rival 6500 dcpi Mousepad + Desk 
AudioAudioOtherOther
Onboard Realtek® ALC 892 Cyber Acoustics CA-2992 2.0 Speakers Razer Krait 1600 DPI nGear G-C1601 Card Reader 
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Pisen Card Reader Gigabyte M7 Thor 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
VIA Eden C7 1200mhz Jetway J7F4K1G2ES-LF VIA Onboard 512MB PC2-4200 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
A-Data FlashDrive None Fanless Linux 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Headless None 65w Power Brick Antec ISK300-65 
MouseAudio
None Onboard VIA 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Barton XP-M 2400+ FJQ4C Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe 256MB BFG 7800GS OC 2x512MB Samsung PC3200 
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