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post #21 of 73
I had a different approach to game leveling scaling with difficulty, but since I'll probably never make a game, here it is.

No level cap, but for every level you are, the enemy attacking you or you're attacking is adjusted to your level. It doesn't make sense to still be fighting level 14 monsters when you're level 121. Instead, enemies you fight are grouped into difference classes, i.e., Type 1 = Level Boss, Type 2 = Stage Boss... Type 10 = Low Minion, etc. Damage, special abilities, hit points, loot drops and experience, scaling is dependent on the class type.

However, for multiplayer, it gets tougher. Obviously, PvP there will be no adjustment (if you're level 17 and someone else is level 121, you better run, and run fast!). But against AI, if you're level 121 and another adventurer is level 17, the damage received and damage done are scaled down to the level 17 player, but for the level 121 player, it's not. While you won't do much damage with a level 17 player, you also won't really be insta-killed. The share of gold, loot, and xp will also be scaled. However, any special abilities will help in those instances. For example, you have a freeze spell that slows enemies down for 3 seconds for 50% attack rate and movement speed. That is still helpful in battles, even though you're not doing much for damage. For healers, healing would be done by percentage than points.

Anyway, it's really all about the logic.
Edited by El_Capitan - 12/2/12 at 12:14am
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post #22 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Capitan View Post

I had a different approach to game leveling scaling with difficulty, but since I'll probably never make a game, here it is.
No level cap, but for every level you are, the enemy attacking you or you're attacking is adjusted to your level. It doesn't make sense to still be fighting level 14 monsters when you're level 121. Instead, enemies you fight are grouped into difference classes, i.e., Type 1 = Level Boss, Type 2 = Stage Boss... Type 10 = Low Minion, etc. Damage, special abilities, hit points, loot drops and experience, scaling is dependent on the class type.
However, for multiplayer, it gets tougher. Obviously, PvP there will be no adjustment (if you're level 17 and someone else is level 121, you better run, and run fast!). But against AI, if you're level 121 and another adventurer is level 17, the damage received and damage done are scaled down to the level 17 player, but for the level 121 player, it's not. While you won't do much damage with a level 17 player, you also won't really be insta-killed. The share of gold, loot, and xp will also be scaled. However, any special abilities will help in those instances. For example, you have a freeze spell that slows enemies down for 3 seconds for 50% attack rate and movement speed. That is still helpful in battles, even though you're not doing much for damage. For healers, healing would be done by percentage than points.
Anyway, it's really all about the logic.

This is the method games like the TES line have used, and I think it's probably the worst of all options.

In addition to keeping the leveling treadmill, you are making the rewards meaningless. Levels and other such advancement are supposed to demonstrate your character's relative level of skill and power. If you never get any better relative to anything else, what the hell is the point of tracking advancement?
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post #23 of 73
Anyone remember playing games because they were fun, the gameplay was good or the mechanics were addictive? Never got the whole 'ima level fity playur' thing but I do understand when someone kills me because their reflexes were a tenth of a millisecond faster than mine or they were more experienced.
Leveling is todays way of adding depth to MEH games.

Leveling itself, IMO, sucks. Build the game around combat and mechanic depth, give me the tools and let me kill.
Edited by pengs - 12/2/12 at 12:38am
post #24 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by pengs View Post

Anyone remember playing games because they were fun, the gameplay was good or the mechanics were addictive? Never got the whole 'ima level fity playur' thing but I do understand when someone kills me because their reflexes were a tenth of a millisecond faster than mine or they were more experienced.
Leveling itself, IMO, sucks. Build the game around combat and mechanic depth, give me the tools and let me kill.


EVE is exactly t his kind of game.. there are no "levels" to speak of other than having the skills to do things or fly certain ships. Best character mechanic Ive ever seen.
 
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post #25 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post

Tibia has an uncapped system like that. Levels and skill points are both uncapped. The current highest level is level 638 (which is meaningless until I tell you that it takes less time to go from 0 to 90 in WoW than it does to go from 0-90 in Tibia. The problem with not having a cap is that it removes any skill from the game, since lack of skill can be made up for with power gained through playing time.
Remember the South Park WoW episode where one player got to a really high level and started killing everyone, forcing Stan, Kyle, Cartman, and Kenny to spend weeks endlessly grinding boars? That's exactly what Tibia has been like for the past 6 or so years.

Diablo 2 made it work pretty well. Just make it so exponentially hard to level, and a big enough penalty, that you effectively do cap out.

 

Of course this is almost more annoying than a simple level cap.

 

I really don't see what's wrong with level caps personally...ensures everyone is at the same level at some point and an even playing field. If you want to attain god mode in a game, just play a single player one.

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post #26 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

This is the method games like the TES line have used, and I think it's probably the worst of all options.
In addition to keeping the leveling treadmill, you are making the rewards meaningless. Levels and other such advancement are supposed to demonstrate your character's relative level of skill and power. If you never get any better relative to anything else, what the hell is the point of tracking advancement?
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Capitan View Post

I had a different approach to game leveling scaling with difficulty, but since I'll probably never make a game, here it is.
No level cap, but for every level you are, the enemy attacking you or you're attacking is adjusted to your level. It doesn't make sense to still be fighting level 14 monsters when you're level 121. Instead, enemies you fight are grouped into difference classes, i.e., Type 1 = Level Boss, Type 2 = Stage Boss... Type 10 = Low Minion, etc. Damage, special abilities, hit points, loot drops and experience, scaling is dependent on the class type.
However, for multiplayer, it gets tougher. Obviously, PvP there will be no adjustment (if you're level 17 and someone else is level 121, you better run, and run fast!). But against AI, if you're level 121 and another adventurer is level 17, the damage received and damage done are scaled down to the level 17 player, but for the level 121 player, it's not. While you won't do much damage with a level 17 player, you also won't really be insta-killed. The share of gold, loot, and xp will also be scaled. However, any special abilities will help in those instances. For example, you have a freeze spell that slows enemies down for 3 seconds for 50% attack rate and movement speed. That is still helpful in battles, even though you're not doing much for damage. For healers, healing would be done by percentage than points.
Anyway, it's really all about the logic.
There's more to it than what I wrote in 2 paragraphs, obviously. The point is not to limit the rewards, it's to scale it appropriately without limits. When do you ever want to fight level 14 mobs at level 121 and go, "Man, I am awesome!"? You don't. However, to go out and fight the same mobs you fought at the beginning of the game, you have new abilities, do more damage, etc. Meanwhile, they're still weaker mobs (and won't die in 1 hit and give like 1 gold, worthless loot, and no xp), but have newer abilities the higher level you are, and can still get some good loot and xp from them because of the scaling (loot scaling will be based off of type of class and abilities they have, different abilities drop loot of that type). No company has developed a game with this concept yet, so I don't know what you're talking about.
Edited by El_Capitan - 12/2/12 at 1:29am
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post #27 of 73
I think people don't want to level forever, nor do they want to spend hundreds of hours playing a game till the level cap, only to be "done" with everything and losing all value of the work put towards the end.

I'm not sure what the perfect balance is between these. But I do know WoW-like incremental level cap increases seem to work best, due to a lack of a better alternative. I personally got tired of having to level (and especially BUY the expansion) every time Blizzard felt like it. But this system got me hooked for the longest time by far, compared to other games.

It's annoying to know that the value a level 60 character once had, is now next to zero. You could compare it to playing an RTS game like Rome Total War, you've conquered the entire known world, only to be confronted with an expansion pack that now includes Asia and then suddenly Africa pops up, the America's come into play etc. That would be cool at first but after a while people will lose interest either way.

The question is : how long do you have to play a game in order to be satisfied and calling it quits ? When does it END for you ? That's something a game developer can't tell for each and every individual, that's why it's so hard.
Edited by MoGTy - 12/2/12 at 1:37am
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post #28 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattbag View Post

I know that in games like star ocean you could play up to level 255 for some of the extremely hard bosses but I've never come close and Idk how many people do.

Leveling to 255 in Star Ocean 3 takes only 2 hours if you know what the heck you're doing. If you look at all the guides for that game they all recommend leveling your characters to 255.
post #29 of 73
It's been said before, but I'll say it again. Guild Wars (1)!
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Arcane
(33 items)
 
Sanctum
(9 items)
 
Fukurou
(15 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Core i7 980x GIGABYTE GA-EX58-UD5 MSI RX 480 GAMING X 4GB MSI GeForce GTX 680 Lightning 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Kingston HyperX T1 Intel X25-M WD Caviar Black FASS Plextor M5S 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOptical Drive
WD Velociraptor WD Caviar Black FALS Sony DVD Burner w/ Lightscribe LG Bluray + HDDVD 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
Black Ice GTX 360 Black Ice GTX 240 Panaflo High Speed - Push-Pull w/ shrouds Windows 7 Pro (64) 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Ubuntu (64) X-Star DP2710 ASUS VK266H Black 25.5" 2ms LCD X-Armor U9BL (Mech) 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
EVGA 1000 P2 Cooler Master HAF 932 Razer Deathadder Chroma Cougar Control 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
ATH-A900X Maudio AV-40 Polk PSW-10 Zalman Mic-1 (Clip-on Mic) 
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Sound Blaster X7 LE Logitech G13 Wacom Intuos 3 Scythe "3-Foot Switch" 
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Modded PS4, PS3, Xbox 360, and Logitech PC Cont... 
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Ryzen 7 1700 MSI B350M Mortar Arctic RX Vega 64 G.Skill TridentZ  
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Raijintek Aeneas White Window 
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Core i5-661 GA-H55-USB3 12GB DDR3 1333 WD Caviar Black AALS 640GB 
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WD Caviar Green EARS 2TB Vertex Turbo 60GB (SSD) Samsung Blu-ray, Samsung DVD Burner H50 (With push/pull nocturas) 
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post #30 of 73
MMOS already favor the biggest neckbeards. Unlike FPS or RTS games, there no skill involved, only time. No levels would just make it even more extreme.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Video Games › Video Games - General › [ArsTechnica] Level capping truly, unapologetically sucks