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[Wired] Don’t Blame Us for Windows 8′s Slow Sales, PC Makers Say - Page 4

post #31 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

I'm not going to even read the article, the problem isn't consumers or MS. As technology peaks, the average consumer starts to get what they want at a reasonable expense. Win7 is close to the peak of the desktop as far as software goes. Unless a huge percent of the market starts going into the enthusiast market, this will continue to plateau. Consumers who don't game on the pc, don't do any heavy processing don't require anything new. As many have said, you can browse the web and do just about anything you please on Win7. What's the incentive to get Win8? DX11? How many people out there own a computer, now how many play DX11? That's just a simple example, the fact is most people are content with what they currently have.
It's close to the same reason why the "cars for junkers" program failed in germany and didn't really help the car industry in the United States either. We are building products, all around, that last longer than expected. To somebody who doesn't benchmark or game, why upgrade the old i7 to the new i7? Power consumption? You assume the person cares and performance is negligible. A lot of people don't cry over 5fps, as long as they can play whatever game they play acceptably. Then you have to think of all the families that purchase a PC for browsing or work, with a console for the kids/parents. That PC might last them 5 years, or more, as handhelds bring up the market for casual browsing they might only use that PC for work or papers. How do you think Macs sell so well? For the games? Many people get them for browsing, watching videos, downloads, itunes, stuff like that. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Your rant is meaningless, you have no idea how the general computer market works and how it is changing.

And if you have actually read the article, one of the CEOs actually covered that point, the lack of incentive to upgrade. Actually, if you even read beyond the title into the first few posts, one of them actually quoted it.

Also, the "If it ain't broke" argument is meaningless here as well. Blackberry worked perfectly and was loved by corporate for a long time. It didn't change at all, and look at where it is now.
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post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

Honestly, MS's problem is marketing and perceptions. Consumers are so ingrained in their thinking these days it is pathetic. If you did completely blind testing or better yet told people counter information on products you could see just how much their minds are warped. 8 may not be great; but consumers are making it into far more than it is. People have no one to blame but themselves. Wish consumers would be more responsible but that is too much to ask when they rather complain.

In what world are you living ? Your post is a complete turning around of reality.

Microsoft is going to lose money because of Windows 8, and I suspect many of the copies sold were because people were allowed to enter false data in order to get the $15 Windows 8 Pro upgrade with the free Media Center, Microsoft has never done this kind of ultimate hypocrisy, and they surely have never sold a Pro version as an upgrade for this cheap. This is not the customers' problem, it's Microsoft's. Customers are very well served with Windows 7, it's Microsoft that has to be responsible, above all, to its shareholders.

As to people being afraid of change, please read my answer to Tsumi below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

I'll chalk this up as another misinformed hater who has never used Windows 8.

The biggest problem is not the touch interface. The biggest problem is that it's different. The second biggest problem is a lack of cohesiveness between the touch world and the desktop world, as both exist on Windows 8, but moving between the two is sometimes not very fluid or intuitive. The third (arguable) biggest problem is that Microsoft didn't offer a native choice to use the classic UI.

As for running regular desktop programs and games... well, Windows 8 does that just fine with no differences at all from Windows 7.

Also, I think tablets are here to stay. The convenience they offer, combined with the growing power and efficiency of mobile x86 processors make them more versatile than ever, and Windows 8 caters well to these new hybrid designs.


Ok, I'm going to put the final nail in the coffin of the "People are afraid of change" argument. And I say "final" because you guys have unconsciously been putting the other nails until now.

The current generation of tablets - iPad and Android is VERY young. The first iPad was released on April 3, 2010, this is how young it is. It's not even three years old, that is less than a new Windows version release cycle. So you guys are essentially accusing people to be afraid of change yet they have apparently been buying tablets like mad ? People who have in their vast majority Windows PCs (desktop and laptop Macs are a minority), yet they have been buying tablets that come with a completely different OS, made by a rival desktop computer company (Apple) or by a company that doesn't even have a proper desktop OS from which people could have come from (Google, not counting Chrome OS, but that has almost no marketshare) ?

People apparently like change a lot more than you Windows 8 defenders give them credit for.

I have repeated this argument many times before, but here it is suited the best. People are not afraid of change, what people don't want is change for the worse, and that is what Windows 8 and Windows RT are. Microsoft is late. In 2007, when Apple launched the iPhone, Steve Ballmer was laughing. Three years later Apple launched the iPad. Lots of people were laughing - "Who wants a supersized iPhone ?", not to mention the parodies about the name itself. What did Steve Ballmer do in these last FIVE years ?

Their whole approach to touch is wrong. Not even Windows RT is without fault, it reminds me of Windows Mobile 6.5. It is not a true all touch OS. For some configurations you are thrown into the desktop, even if you don't have a Touch Cover, that is not even part of the base price. It seems like Microsoft doesn't want to jump into touch with both feet. Their rivals did, they built a touch experience from the ground up, Microsoft on the other hand built Windows Mobile 6.5 v2.

If the best Microsoft can do is jump with only one foot, then they surely shouldn't be surprised if customers don't buy it.
Edited by tpi2007 - 12/3/12 at 7:03pm
 
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post #33 of 53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

In what world are you living ? Your post is a complete turning around of reality.
Microsoft is going to lose money because of Windows 8, and I suspect many of the copies sold were because people were allowed to enter false data in order to get the $15 Windows 8 Pro upgrade with the free Media Center, Microsoft has never done this kind of ultimate hypocrisy, and they surely have never sold a Pro version as an upgrade for this cheap. This is not the customers' problem, it's Microsoft's. Customers are very well served with Windows 7, it's Microsoft that has to be responsible, above all, to its shareholders.
As to people being afraid of change, please read my answer to Tsumi below.
Ok, I'm going to put the final nail in the coffin of the "People are afraid of change" argument. And I say "final" because you guys have unconsciously been putting the other nails until now.
The current generation of tablets - iPad and Android is VERY young. The first iPad was released on April 3, 2010, this is how young it is. It's not even three years old, that is less than a new Windows version release cycle. So you guys are essentially accusing people to be afraid of change yet they have apparently been buying tablets like mad ? People who have in their vast majority Windows PCs (desktop and laptop Macs are a minority), yet they have been buying tablets that come with a completely different OS, made by a rival desktop computer company (Apple) or by a company that doesn't even have a proper desktop OS from which people could have come from (Google, not counting Chrome OS, but that has almost no marketshare) ?
People apparently like change a lot more than you Windows 8 defenders give them credit for.
I have repeated this argument many times before, but here it is suited the best. People are not afraid of change, what people don't want is change for the worse, and that is what Windows 8 and Windows RT are. Microsoft is late. In 2007, when Apple launched the iPhone, Steve Ballmer was laughing. Three years later Apple launched the iPad. Lots of people were laughing - "Who wants a supersized iPhone ?", not to mention the parodies about the name itself. What did Steve Ballmer do in these last FIVE years ?
Their whole approach to touch is all wrong. Not even Windows RT is without fault, it reminds me of Windows Mobile 6.5. It is not a true all touch OS. For some configuratons you are thrown into the desktop, even if you don't have a touch cover, that is not even part of the base price. It seems like Microsoft doesn't want to jump into touch with both feet. Their rivals did, they built a touch experience from the ground up, Microsoft on the other hand built Windows Mobile 6.5 v2.
If the best Microsoft can do is jump with only one foot, then they surely shouldn't be surprised if customers don't buy it.

There's one problem to the argument though:

The tablet was tried before by Microsoft, and by and large most people didn't like it because it wasn't easy to use, and most people didn't really even pay attention to tablets at the time anyways. It was a novelty item with very limited scope due to the lack of proper wi-fi hotspots, cellular networks, and limited marketing.

Current Android and iOS tablets, UI-wise, are pretty much the same as their smartphone variants. Microsoft did not have a viable smartphone in the consumer space, so we'll just ignore that. The two popular smartphone operating systems, Android and iOS, function pretty much exactly the same on both tablets and smartphones. The touch-based smartphone was not so much different as completely brand new, there was nothing prior to compare it to. Anyone using a smartphone knew that they had to get used to something new. By the time the tablet came around, most people who would be interested in tablets would already be familiar with the smartphone variant, and immediately feel at home with tablets. There was no prior experience to guide them, so it's not so much different as just new.

With Windows, many users have a set way of doing things. The new UI changes some of those things, and people are usually very resistant to things that forces them to change their habits. It's not so much fear of change as it is an unwillingness to change from the familiar.

As for whether it's perfect or not... you should already know my stance on that issue.
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post #34 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

There's one problem to the argument though:

The tablet was tried before by Microsoft, and by and large most people didn't like it because it wasn't easy to use, and most people didn't really even pay attention to tablets at the time anyways. It was a novelty item with very limited scope due to the lack of proper wi-fi hotspots, cellular networks, and limited marketing.

Current Android and iOS tablets, UI-wise, are pretty much the same as their smartphone variants. Microsoft did not have a viable smartphone in the consumer space, so we'll just ignore that. The two popular smartphone operating systems, Android and iOS, function pretty much exactly the same on both tablets and smartphones. The touch-based smartphone was not so much different as completely brand new, there was nothing prior to compare it to. Anyone using a smartphone knew that they had to get used to something new. By the time the tablet came around, most people who would be interested in tablets would already be familiar with the smartphone variant, and immediately feel at home with tablets. There was no prior experience to guide them, so it's not so much different as just new.

With Windows, many users have a set way of doing things. The new UI changes some of those things, and people are usually very resistant to things that forces them to change their habits. It's not so much fear of change as it is an unwillingness to change from the familiar.

As for whether it's perfect or not... you should already know my stance on that issue.


Nice try, but there is a fundamental problem with your argument: people did have a choice when buying a smartphone, they could have bought a then called PDA (with phone capability), using Windows Mobile 6.1, complete with a stylus, or a Blackberry with a normal mobile phone keyboard or a QWERTY keyboard or a Nokia N95 (decidedly a consumer friendly device). If people were truly averse to change they wouldn't have switched and would have kept using these devices. But they didn't. So, let's not "just ignore that", because that is a fundamental part of the problem here.

For further reading here is my post comparing the Nokia N95 versus the first iPhone, both launched in 2007 (second part of the post, the first part is interesting because, together with the second part, it also addresses the first part of your post - why Apple has been successful in entering markets, even though they are not the first).
Edited by tpi2007 - 12/3/12 at 7:07pm
 
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post #35 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Displacing in that while it acts as a supplement, if the desktop is still "good enough," people would forgo a PC purchase in favor of a tablet or smartphone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z Overlord View Post

desktop and laptop sales have been declining for years now

The simplest way to put this: the tech outran the software. For a long time (pretty much all of the "mainstream computer use" generation up until a couple of years ago), frequent upgrades or replacements were almost mandatory due to the fact that software always needed more - processing power, RAM, physical storage space, etc. Each new generation brought immediate improvements and results, such as better graphics, better multitasking, virtualization, enhanced security, and improved productivity. Now we have reached a point where even lower mid range systems can run even the latest and most powerful software with ease, and upgrades just aren't as noticeable anymore. It's not necessarily that people are replacing desktops and notebooks with tablets, it's just that desktops and notebooks have a much longer life expectancy than they did previously. In short, why would I want to fork out $1500+ for this year's top of the line hardware when last year's hardware is just as good for all but the pickiest FPS junkie, especially when even my phone can do 90% of what my desktop is used for anyway?

This is similar to my feelings on Windows 8. Let me start by saying that I have tried Win8 for about a month. It's not really a "bad" OS. It's just that it doesn't provide enough of a benefit to me personally. I know it's faster and has better security, but with how I use my desktop, the speed increase was unnoticeable. As far as security goes, I'm honestly not that worried about it. Every non-replaceable file on this system is backed up repeatedly and stored in different locations (local HDD backup, local flash drive backup, cloud backup). I run anti virus/malware software, and I practice safe browsing habits. I'm not an easy target, and that is enough to stop the vast majority of threats.


Edit: looks like I jumped the gun, and several people have already made the same argument, just better. Ah well.
Edited by Mr. Mojo - 12/3/12 at 7:30pm
 
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post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Your rant is meaningless, you have no idea how the general computer market works and how it is changing.
And if you have actually read the article, one of the CEOs actually covered that point, the lack of incentive to upgrade. Actually, if you even read beyond the title into the first few posts, one of them actually quoted it.
Also, the "If it ain't broke" argument is meaningless here as well. Blackberry worked perfectly and was loved by corporate for a long time. It didn't change at all, and look at where it is now.

You can't really call any product's failure on a part of it working well or not. Products fail all the time that work really well, or they fall in a market that nobody cares for. The very fact that MS talks about not putting DX 11.1 on Win7 backs up more of what I'm talking about. They know incentive to purchase an OS is low, hence why they will lock features to a new opsys. We all know Win7 could run 11.1, they push it on Win8 to get the enthusiast market on par. That's a big key play, if the people who are obsessed with win8 play ball then the average consumer tends to believe there is a reason to move forward. Making MS money. The very idea that many people use their phones instead of a computer also pushes the idea that on the software side of things, many people are currently content. If they weren't, you would see more people use their phones less. It's convenient and does what they want, staying with an operating system that does everything you currently need is about the same.

CEOs have to push the idea that there is a failure somewhere and that the failure is not a fault of Microsoft. It's their job to keep PR good, just as it's their job to make it sound as if getting a new operating system allows you to do your current tasks better. However better may be, they still push it.

I know dozens of people who hated blackberry phones, a lot of people I know had them because they got them from work and that was about it. They worked well in the corporate world but I've known quite a few people who got rid of theirs asap for something else. Anything else honestly. Just because it was loved by the corporate world doesn't meananything either, could have been PR bs to keep contracts up. I bet if you made a dirt cheap smartphone and handed it out to corporate business with plans, they'd eat it up and say it was amazing. When you have whole business buy phones in bulk for their employees, you tend to get some mixed results. You'll have many who won't say anything, because they fear what their boss thinks so as to keep boss relations up they say the phone is great. It's called getting a raise, or working up the ladder. Get your nose brown a little and you make more money.

Not to mention, there are other people in here who basically said the same thing. I just expended on it with different reasons. To many the operating system is just a layer for them to run their applications, there isn't anything special about it and most features aren't even noticed. I can't count how many people don't know about ICS or a network bridge. "You can use your laptop for your xbox internet?", the general public isn't stupid but they don't care. If they don't care about any new features, what reason do they have to move? It's the exact same reason XP had such a "long" life, people didn't see anything new. MS is going to say anything to keep that from happening because that type of thought doesn't make them money. The bottom line is, they are in it for the money and not really for the product.
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post #37 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

To many the operating system is just a layer for them to run their applications, there isn't anything special about it and most features aren't even noticed. I can't count how many people don't know about ICS or a network bridge. "You can use your laptop for your xbox internet?", the general public isn't stupid but they don't care. If they don't care about any new features, what reason do they have to move? It's the exact same reason XP had such a "long" life, people didn't see anything new. MS is going to say anything to keep that from happening because that type of thought doesn't make them money. The bottom line is, they are in it for the money and not really for the product.

Going back to the topic of my last post, we are now at the point where software is trying to catch up/surpass the hardware, particularly in the desktop market. If MS wants the sales, they will have to do something to convince buyers that they need to upgrade. They can't relay on the hardware industry to do it for them this time around. This is exactly what MS is attempting to do with Win8.

Also, XP was a fluke. MS has stated before that they like the idea of 2-3 year release cycles for major revisions. The extreme amount of changes they tried to implement with Vista, and the almost weekly revision of the design plan and components caused major delays. MS tried to do everything different all at once, and ended up taking much longer than originally planned.
 
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post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo View Post

Going back to the topic of my last post, we are now at the point where software is trying to catch up/surpass the hardware, particularly in the desktop market. If MS wants the sales, they will have to do something to convince buyers that they need to upgrade. They can't relay on the hardware industry to do it for them this time around. This is exactly what MS is attempting to do with Win8.
Also, XP was a fluke. MS has stated before that they like the idea of 2-3 year release cycles for major revisions. The extreme amount of changes they tried to implement with Vista, and the almost weekly revision of the design plan and components caused major delays. MS tried to do everything different all at once, and ended up taking much longer than originally planned.

Oh, I didn't mean XP was intentional it just happened as you said. The average consumer was fine with what they had at the time. I like your take of the hardware surpassing the software, wish I'd said that. =P It's a very good concept, though my only question is what happens when that is permanent? Eventually the software will only go so far, with modular software/drivers the way they are. I think we are hitting a point, to where the hardware won't be nearly as aggressive. Or better, support for new hardware will simply be a new driver and the system itself can be kept secure with updates. Think of Ivy and Sandy, realistically they are very much the same. A bit more horsepower and less power consumption, neither of which require a huge change in the opsys/kernel/drivers. Then what, you toss in a bit more ram and a new graphics card, again very little to do with the software on the MS end. The major thing I see that would require some innovation might be storage and how we use caching, though honestly they would need to re-design NTFS and they haven't exactly pushed that yet. In the past few years, I haven't seen the core components have any huge impacts on the majority of the people using them. You still see people very very content with laptops that are 3+ years old. It plays their music, videos, browses, the average activities of the average consumer.

I believe there are things we can do on the software end, I just don't know if many people particularly want it in the majority of homes. To take a spin of what Carmack said, we have computing power coming out of our ears. I see people buy a new quad core computer without the intent of ever utilizing it, knowing that the speed increase they feel is a placebo effect. It's saddening because we waste so much without any real use for it. The biggest use I've seen are developers or gamers, otherwise most people just squander the computer's potential.

Now what AMD is doing, that could do some wonders if we put more effort into... experimental hardware? If you think about it, a re-design of x86, or even tossing that out completely and re-design the architecture of the home desktop. The only problem with that is, MS kind of owns the desktop so they [more or less] decide what the arch is. I find that disturbing in a way, as they know eventually the software won't really require a huge re-design. Your still dealing with the same hardware, i686 instructions with a twist. If you think about it, the linux kernel changes more in a year than the windows kernel changes in a release. It's easier to cache everything on Linux to ram than it is in windows, something you would think they might change given the amount of ram we now have in most desktops. Core legacy features that are still there, because MS requires them to sell a new product. I doubt you'll ever see a major re-haul of the operating system like that for a while, incremental tweaks bring more money to them. It's just business. Not to mention, dropping some legacy features would require companies to do major overhauls of software for that release. At that point they might as well re-design the software for Linux or BSD, eliminating the licensing fees giving a loss to MS. Another poor business tactic for the company but probably better for the consumers. Kinda crummy.
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Current Rig
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post #39 of 53
Maybe its wrong to blame the OEMs fully, but when an operating system launches in October, people don't want to buy new laptops unless they have touch and there are maybe two or three products available on the market going into December.....with many of the big hitters arriving in some unverified time next year......of course device sales aren't exactly going to be skyrocketing.

Where is the availability/visibility, at least in the UK (and many other places I'm sure)?

Where is the Lenovo Yoga 13?

Where is the ASUS Transformer Book?

Where is the Surface Pro?

Where is the Acer ICONIA w700?

Where is the Samsing ATIV Smart PC Pro?

Where is the ASUS Taichi?

Where is the Dell XPS 10?

Where is the ASUS VIVOtab Smart?

Where is the ACER S7?

Where is the Dell XPS 12 Duo?


That is a crap load of products to NOT have on the market.......to not have millions of people uploading unboxing/review/omg I bought a new thing videos, to not have people be able to talk about on forums.

To not be increasing W8s market share.


Again, blaming the manufacturers completely may not be right, but there's definitely something wrong about most of them not having hardware available to the consumer till the next fiscal quarter.
Edited by GrizzleBoy - 12/4/12 at 3:19am
It's-a tu maaach
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It's-a tu maaach
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post #40 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

Honestly, MS's problem is marketing and perceptions. Consumers are so ingrained in their thinking these days it is pathetic. If you did completely blind testing or better yet told people counter information on products you could see just how much their minds are warped. 8 may not be great; but consumers are making it into far more than it is. People have no one to blame but themselves. Wish consumers would be more responsible but that is too much to ask when they rather complain.

"The reason why our product sucks is because of you all, the consumers."
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Overclock.net › Forums › Software, Programming and Coding › Operating Systems › Windows › [Wired] Don’t Blame Us for Windows 8′s Slow Sales, PC Makers Say