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Possible upgrade from Rebel Xsi to 60d - Page 3

post #21 of 44
I have seen a wedding shot on 2X Canon 1D mkII which unless im mistaken is not a Full Frame 35mm digital sensor. so i dont understand what your point it. Are you saying that anything that isnt a Full Frame is drastically lower quality? I would love for you to explain to me your opinion on the 1D mkIV rolleyes.gif
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post #22 of 44
Compare the 5Dc to the 60D and, for kicks, the D7000 on DxO Mark. You might find some of your preconceived notions about ISO and DR to be less accurate than you think.
post #23 of 44
Eh, the jump from APS-C to 35mm isn't that huge to be honest. Sensor tech has managed to make the differences less significant than before. Of course an equivalent larger sensor will always be better but IMO the leap from APS-C to 35mm isn't in the realm of being the same as 35mm to Medium Format. More so the jump between 35mm to MF is more significant due to MF being aimed mainly at things like IQ.
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post #24 of 44
Disagree all you want but keep it civil gentlemen.
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post #25 of 44
Well...nothing like a spirited thread, is there? rolleyes.gif

FF is great. It has a sensor 250% bigger than APS-C.

Yet it is hard to stress the fact that a 250% bigger sensor is vastly pickier in lenses used.
Whoever has any experience with a 5D (classic or not) will know pretty fast that a 24-70 L is the "minimum", and even cheap primes are simply "not there".
Yes, you can have luck with a sharp 28-75 2.8 Tamron, here and there etc...but guess what: even if the 5Dc is relatively affordable today, it is still a FF that requires expensive glass, and even when it gets it, it doesn't have the AF precision, color depth and DR that newer cameras have, even when those are equipted with a sensor more than 2 times smaller...

As far as primes go - please...
I know, I have lots of them...nothing beats a standard zoom as far as utility goes. Through in a great standard zoom like a 15-85 IS in your bag and I bet that primes will be used in niche occasions:

* ultra fast portrait
* macro
* long tele

No, you cannot drop a "decent" lens on your 5Dc and believe you will be whiping the floor with 60Ds (or newer Rebels alike) that play with 15-85 or 17-55 EF-S.

If you don't have the above facts clear in your head, you are simply too much of a purist, you have too much time to take shots at your pleasure, you have too much money to spend for your hobby (probably more than one body, one for each lens), no real experience with equipment (or all of the above).
Amateur photographers are notorious in equipment mast***tion.
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post #26 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by sub50hz View Post

Compare the 5Dc to the 60D and, for kicks, the D7000 on DxO Mark. You might find some of your preconceived notions about ISO and DR to be less accurate than you think.

Seriously, this. The 5Dc is old as heck. APS-C sensors have come a long way since then.
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post #27 of 44
It all depends on what you're doing. I'm a studio shooter so I just use primes.
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post #28 of 44
24-70 is the "minimum"? Cheap primes are "not there"?

My wife took one of a bride's favorite shots from her wedding this past summer (with about 10% of the experience I have) with a 5Dc and a 28-105 f/3.5-f/4.5, a super-cheap zoom I picked up for her to have to use as a zoom if she wanted it. Could it be considered an exception? Sure, I'll be realistic and admit that's not inconceivable, but the notion that the 5Dc requires anything (other than the ability to actually use it) to produce good quality images is simply silly.

Does full frame mean that you use more of a lens (which, when a lens is lower quality, means it can include more things such as distortions, aberrations, etc)? Sure, I'll concede that all day. In essence though, any lens that isn't designated EF-S is, in theory, designed to be used on a full frame sensor. Sure, a crop sensor allows you to get more in to what is commonly referred to as the 'sweet spot' of a lens, but alot of times people come to learn the minor things that stand out about their lenses and use them to suit their style or desired look. This almost reminds me of people that tell us that 'L lenses are wasted on crop cameras'. Welp, better get rid of those 70-200 f/2.8 IS's Jason, because apparently they suck on the 7D/1D4/etc..

Marin nails it, as per usual. It all depends on what you're doing. You don't need fast glass in a studio (since if you're working with primes, and if you're doing portraits, etc, you're probably manual focusing anyway).
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post #29 of 44
Thread Starter 
I didn't start the flame war I swear lol. I only followed half of what you were saying anyway tongue.gif

But Christmas break plan is to learn a bit more about using my camera and shooting/using RAW. Right now I am fairly decent at using my camera (ie, I dont need the auto shoot settings), but I know absolutely nothing about editing/processing afterwards.
    
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post #30 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtolios View Post

Well...nothing like a spirited thread, is there? rolleyes.gif
FF is great. It has a sensor 250% bigger than APS-C.
Yet it is hard to stress the fact that a 250% bigger sensor is vastly pickier in lenses used.
Whoever has any experience with a 5D (classic or not) will know pretty fast that a 24-70 L is the "minimum", and even cheap primes are simply "not there".
Yes, you can have luck with a sharp 28-75 2.8 Tamron, here and there etc...but guess what: even if the 5Dc is relatively affordable today, it is still a FF that requires expensive glass, and even when it gets it, it doesn't have the AF precision, color depth and DR that newer cameras have, even when those are equipted with a sensor more than 2 times smaller...
As far as primes go - please...
I know, I have lots of them...nothing beats a standard zoom as far as utility goes. Through in a great standard zoom like a 15-85 IS in your bag and I bet that primes will be used in niche occasions:
* ultra fast portrait
* macro
* long tele
No, you cannot drop a "decent" lens on your 5Dc and believe you will be whiping the floor with 60Ds (or newer Rebels alike) that play with 15-85 or 17-55 EF-S.
If you don't have the above facts clear in your head, you are simply too much of a purist, you have too much time to take shots at your pleasure, you have too much money to spend for your hobby (probably more than one body, one for each lens), no real experience with equipment (or all of the above).
Amateur photographers are notorious in equipment mast***tion.

I disagree. I have used both primes and zooms extensively. Zooms that have a fixed aperture generally have a short zoom range on them that can be made up by a few steps forward or a few steps back yet they are inferior to primes in every way.

You can get a nice prime like the 50 1.4 and be good to go with that lens by itself with a 5Dc. You can build up a nice set of primes like a 28 1.8, 50 1.4, 85 1.8, and your long telephoto of choice like a 135 F2 or 200 f2.8.

I currently am using a Tamron 17-50 on a crop body and honestly the whole zoom range can be made up in a few steps and it is optically inferior to my cheap $90 Canon 50 1.8 that I sold. I would never get zooms on a full frame or ever again in general but that's just my preference. The 24-70L II will never be optically as good as even a 85 1.8 which you can get for $300 or even as good as a 50 1.4 which again, you can get for $300 brand new.

If you drop a nice prime that's still cheap yet amazing such as the 85 1.8 yet it will mop the floor when placed on a 5Dc vs a 60D. I'll only buy primes for here on out I do not like the short zoom range of fixed aperture zooms and the much inferior sharpness, saturation, contrast, superior exposure evaluation readings, micro contrast, and the eye that you develop for each prime at each focal length and the unique look that you can get with primes.

You can really blow your background out and get really nice low light usage with a lens that is 1.4 vs a lens that is 2.8.

If they made a zoom that was say 18-125 f2.8 than I'd say that zooms are worth it over primes. Again though, I shoot portraiture including engagements & weddings so I can afford the time of switching lenses on the go. If I shot sports or wildlife I'd get a 28-135 and a really long telephoto though without the fixed aperture and I'd stick to crop body but for portraiture full frame and primes can't be beat.

I shoot over 1,000 photos a week and extensively try to improve my skillset so I'm not just a weekend warrior. Primes can't be beat compared to any zooms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sub50hz View Post

Compare the 5Dc to the 60D and, for kicks, the D7000 on DxO Mark. You might find some of your preconceived notions about ISO and DR to be less accurate than you think.

I would never resort to a site like snapsort or DxoMark. I look at real world results and from what I've seen and logic proves (a 2.5X larger sensor) the 5Dc is miles ahead of the 60D in terms of IQ. It is on level footing with even the 6D as I saw comparison shots posted just two weeks ago between the two full frame cameras that have the same size sensor if recall correctly (or close to the same size).

If you were right and DXoMark was right than why would photographers invest over $2,000 on a 5DMKii or $800 on a used 7 year old 5Dmk1 body when you can get a brand new 60D body for $700.
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