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[NBC] 3-D printed gun fires 6 shots — then falls apart - Page 21

post #201 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

You are advocating burning tax money and complicating lawful purchases, nothing more.

I'm actually really just advocating that when someone buys a 3D printer they do 2 minutes of paperwork.

Should the average citizen really have to? No... Probably not but, would it eventually save someone's life? It's quite possible.

It would definitely make the individual significantly easier to trace if there happened to be a sudden boom in shootings with plastic/polymer "home made" lowers...

Polymer casings already exist...So, definitely don't need the brass anymore to really get ammo made...Ceramic tip the round, half the primer and you have a legitimate polymer round.

The polymer we're discussing that already exists is quite a bit stronger then what's mainstream right now but, it's not out of reach...I'm sure if I talked to my plastics company, I could come up with something relatively similar...It's not unfathomable.

I think what shocked me the most when I went into NYPD's locker were the WOODEN lower receivers...That's right, criminals in NYC will make their guns out of wood, people. So, in that respect, I'll agree that someone who wants a gun will do whatever they can to acquire one.

I, personally, wouldn't mind 2-3 minutes of paperwork when dropping 5-10k on a 3D printer though, to be as equally honest. Had to do 20 minutes of paperwork just to apply for my stamp...
post #202 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by jprovido View Post

DIY guns? scary frown.gif
Like it's a new thing.
post #203 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Had to do 20 minutes of paperwork just to apply for my stamp...

Yeah, it's a ton of paperwork, but that 20 minutes doesn't even take into account all the other added time we have to do. Finger printing, photographs, driving here, driving there, paying for all of it, then waiting for the Federal/State/Local background checks, etc. It's a major pain for the honest gun owner. All so you can have some fun toys ... which make a much better "assassination weapon" than some 3D printer made lower for an AR-15 that breaks after 6 shots.



I just wish my State and the Feds would stop having me fill out the same damn paperwork, set of finger prints, and photograph every time I want to buy a new Title II weapon/device. My info (and certainly my finger prints) haven't changed in years.
post #204 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by m98custom1212 View Post

doh.gif I run a machine shop.. if I waited I could make ar15 lowers, better made Ak47's, glocks, suppressors you name it.
Even if you could or couldn't 3D print a gun that wouldn't stop a criminal from getting one.

Exactly. What they did can be done with even the most basic of tools (just takes longer time) that are commonly available now (and have been for decades). Heck, when I turned down the barrel of my Ruger Mk II pistol, threaded it so I could put on a suppressor, and retapped the holes for the front sight, I did it all in house.

Most of the people here on OCN who are all up in, pardon the pun, arms about 3D Printing of an AR lower don't have the first clue about firearms outside of CSI Miami or Black Ops video games.




post #205 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

I just wish my State and the Feds would stop having me fill out the same damn paperwork, set of finger prints, and photograph every time I want to buy a new Title II weapon/device. My info (and certainly my finger prints) haven't changed in years.

Form a trust. Makes it much less painful.
 
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post #206 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

I'm actually really just advocating that when someone buys a 3D printer they do 2 minutes of paperwork.
Should the average citizen really have to? No... Probably not but, would it eventually save someone's life? It's quite possible.
It would definitely make the individual significantly easier to trace if there happened to be a sudden boom in shootings with plastic/polymer "home made" lowers...
Polymer casings already exist...So, definitely don't need the brass anymore to really get ammo made...Ceramic tip the round, half the primer and you have a legitimate polymer round.
The polymer we're discussing that already exists is quite a bit stronger then what's mainstream right now but, it's not out of reach...I'm sure if I talked to my plastics company, I could come up with something relatively similar...It's not unfathomable.
I think what shocked me the most when I went into NYPD's locker were the WOODEN lower receivers...That's right, criminals in NYC will make their guns out of wood, people. So, in that respect, I'll agree that someone who wants a gun will do whatever they can to acquire one.
I, personally, wouldn't mind 2-3 minutes of paperwork when dropping 5-10k on a 3D printer though, to be as equally honest. Had to do 20 minutes of paperwork just to apply for my stamp...

I doubt it will be a few minutes of paper work...and what good would that do? If I was criminal I'd just fake the information. They only way to regulate it would be have a license that you have to apply for and wait for a few weeks while it is reviewed by some underpaid government workers. Honestly, if it was decided that 3D printers needed that much regulation I think they would just be banned from the market...or perhaps only be approved for use by large businesses. I am still not sure which side I should be on yet even. I am trying to think what would happen to the world economy if all of a sudden there were a million people printing out goods rather than going to a store and buying them...and then what would happen at 10 million...100 million...

In a couple years I think we will be seeing 3D printing explode and it is going to make the data copyright infringement debate seem like two old ladies arguing over what tea is the best. Though this building your own gun issue might actually be a problem. No one has really mentioned this yet and I didn't realize this at first, but with the 3D printer it would take nearly no skill to build the gun part. If one person with the know how made the plan and distributed it...some one would just need the file and the software to read it and send the info to the printer. I said earlier how this is nothing new and people can do it with metal machining tools (and even wood as you mentioned), but to do so requires a lot of skill that cannot be learned by just reading an owners manual. As long as I knew how to turn on and configure the printer...I should be able to make whatever I have the designs for. Though the same can really be said about machines that can hook up to a CAD program like CNCs I guess. It is just those are rather costly and no self respecting criminal would go that route when you can get guns cheaper via other avenues.
Edited by Vagrant Storm - 12/5/12 at 8:41am
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post #207 of 440
Isn't the whole point behind all this that no amount of regulation will really change anything in the end on this front. Last I checked, criminals aren't big on following existing gun regulations and laws.

I still stand behind my feeling that this isn't going to change anything. There are too many readily available unregistered guns and other weapons out there that can be had much cheaper and faster than getting a 3D printer, learning and printing off it, and hoping whatever you made works.
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post #208 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
This isn't true...And those of you that claim the pressure is too much...That's not the point.
Right now, in the US, you can as a citizen over the age of 21 order every single part of an AR with the exception of the lower. Don't need a license, don't need authorization in fact, 99% of the time all you do is click a button that says you accept the terms of that sale so, you could be 12 in all reality.
This particular AR "broke down" because the bolt recoil was too much pressure for the lower. That's very easily remedied, as some have already stated, he just used the wrong method.
My business owns a 3D printer because I wanted to make custom parts above/beyond what other manufacturers were making...I've experimented with many plastics in the printer.
If you know where to buy from, by my math and from my last order, you can get a significantly harder plastic and bang out receivers for arguably 50c/receiver. I'm not including the electricity or programming time but, if you buy the beads/medium in enough bulk, they get down to next to nothing.
So, let's toss out the expense argument because 50c/lower is actually chump change in the grand scheme of things.
Let's move onto the pressure argument...My gunsmith and I, actually had a VERY LONG discussion about this last night and he had some different ways of doing it...Ways that I hadn't even thought of that actually make this easier.
Polymer AR15's and LRR's already exist, they're just not available to the private citizen...Most are prototypes but, there are a few mainstream.
Let's talk pistols.
The G22 is an example of a 90% polymer frame...Or plastic, if you'd prefer calling it plastic...However, on a pistol, the slide is what gets registered with an FFL.
It would not be difficult to obtain a G22, use the match barrel that one can buy over the counter and just make a polymer slide.
Now, you have an untraceable handgun that, you can essentially just throw away after 5/6 shots (I don't know why you'd need more than 1) and it could never be traced, ever.
Ammunition isn't tracked in fact, I can buy in bulk @ 1000 rounds of 45acp right now, without having a license and I can even pay by check so, in essence, someone could just steal a check and get about 1000 rounds of ammo without anyone knowing the wiser for about a month.
Let's talk AR's.
Now, polymer AR's already exist in a completed fashion without metal receivers...In fact, I believe it was frontier armory that perfected the technique...
The polymer, only costs a few dollars from what I was told and can actually be run over much like a Pmag. The lower actually retails for $115.00.
Now the issue with the upper is purely one of head pressure...Nothing more, nothing less...This can be altered by venting the back pressure on the back of the barrel and mid-porting.
Do you lose velocity? Yes...Absolutely, the FPS will drop from about 2800 to 1800 but, you only need 1 shot.
Now, if the person making these receivers augmented the process just slightly and used a stronger plastic, voilla, we have a working AR15 that can fire more than 5/6 shots.
In fact, they already exist...
Again, the entire AR from start to finish, can be made, by using polymers for less than $400 and $200 of that is actually the barrel/barrel nut/bolt.
You don't need to buy a new upper, either...Just buy a barrel on the street for $20, thread/mount the barrel to the head size, space the head and you have an untraceable AR.
Let's talk rifles.
Again, polymers exist that can accept the head pressures from a .223/.556 so, is a .308 beyond belief? No. A 300wm? No. A .338? No...A .408? Maybe...A .50? After 1 shot, yes.
In fact, there are polymer rifles already on the private market...Considering how few there actually are, I highly doubt any have made it to the black market but, whatever...It's possible.
Polymer rifles when loaded with polymer rounds (Already exist and made by a company called PCP), one could adjust the tip to be ceramic; in fact if you hand loaded, there are several materials that are commonly purchased that essentially leave no trace, can't be tracked and your target, he's still dead...From a mile etc.
So, polymer rifle, absolutely...Again 1 shot, 1 kill.
I don't quite understand where you people are getting the argument "Try making a 1k yard shot when getting shot at"...Well, if you're not retarded, you won't be fired on until AFTER your first shot and if you have half a brain, they won't be able to find you after the first shot...Or the 2nd...But, the 3rd, will hit off the harmonic tracers and then, you better run.
The danger that exists is entirely the fact they're untraceable and how cheap they are to actually produce...We already know for a fact, and beyond a reasonable doubt, that certain household plastics/polymers are capable of being used to make a rifle. We already used polymer rounds because there's less head pressure but, the round accomplishes the same exact task as it's FMJ brethren.
I'm not saying, panic, I'm not saying, live in fear, I'm not sensationalizing this situation. What I AM saying is, this essentially gives the means for someone to bang out lowers at 50c/piece or entire guns at a cost of about $20/rifle minus the barrel/barrel nut and bolt...Which you can actually buy on the street as well, for about $10...So, for $30, someone on the street could arguably have a working .338 with ceramic ammo...Capable of hitting 1mile+...With a rifle that's 100% untraceable in any regard other than the plastics that individual used...Because, again, any shooter with 1/2 a brain firing a rifle in that type of situation would take the bolt with them.
They don't blow up in your hands...They don't explode if they're properly made...And you won't get shot at UNTIL AFTER YOUR FIRST SHOT, unless you're absolutely brain dead...So an assassination is actually 100% possible.
Also, available on the civilian market are guides/graphs for windage, distance, elevation, temperature...In fact, on the flip guide of my .408's log-book is an entire graph that came with the book that actually calculates all of the above in a Mil-Dot output...I don't use it but, the binder itself cost $5 and I HIGHLY DOUBT, they even have my name on file in the great state of Georgia.
This is only a big deal because of what can happen...Has happened...and will continue to happen.
Again, I'm not fearmongering but, the reality is that the vast majority of you think this is a joke and that's okay but, with this becoming mainstream, much more mainstream than billeting and MUCH CHEAPER, then this is going to occur more and more often and IMO, we need to be aware of that and monitor the sales of these a bit closer...
That's my 2cp, agree with me or not, don't really care.
Masked, you’re scaring me. I’m starting to think you believe what you’re typing.


1) “Pressure too high” is not beside the point. It is the point. 3D printers cannot make the critical parts of a centerfire weapon right now. They may never be able to either. This is not hyperbole; SAMMI specs are easily found and understood. It is not impossible that 3D printing will never be able to construct safe action components.

2) Yes, we US citizens over 21 can buy all parts of a firearm except the serialed part determined by the ATF to be the firearm. Your point? Don’t beat around the bush or imply, come out and say it.

3) Cost is irrelevant. If you want to talk polymers and startup costs, give S&W a call and talk to their tech rep. Or call up Magpul. They won’t give you exact numbers but they don’t have to: coming up with a house blend is expensive as all hell. After you get that initial expense, you’re golden; long-term costs are significantly lower and quality control is significantly higher because you control the formula and you already have the molds. Whether you’re physically making the product in-house or not, it’s hard to screw up if the formula and mold are good to go.

Remember that argument that you said was beside the point? The one about pressure being too high? You find me a polymer that can replace steel in a Glock’s slide. Hell, let’s dial down a bit and find a polymer that can replace the bolt carrier in an AR; walk before run, eh? Let me know how that polymer slided Glock works out for ya. Please post pics. (And... don’t use the 22. Start with one of the 9mm models.)

4) “Polymer AR15's and LRR's already exist, they're just not available to the private citizen.” You’re lying through your teeth or grasping for straws hoping you get one that sounds good. I have (as in, I own, I shoot regularly, and have put about 2.5k rounds through in the last year) a S&W M&P 15-22. It is an AR-15 chambered in .22 LR and has a polymer upper and lower receiver. Colt also has a polymer .22 AR, but it mostly sucks and I don’t recommend it. Note the caliber: 22LR. A paltry 24k-ish PSI rimfire cartridge. The bolt and barrel are still steel.

Centerfire cartridges? Sure. Bushmaster’s ACR, FN Herstal’s SCAR, HK’s XM8 and G36 (both known to melt their own polymer receivers, curiously enough...). First two are freely available. Latter two, well, “Because we suck. And we hate you.” In any case, the actions of all weapons are steel. Barrels? Steel.

Wanna talk long range rifles (“LLR”) instead? Great. AICS, Savage, Remington, JAE, and most other riflemakers offer polymer stocks. Actions and barrels are still steel. All of these are also freely available to We The People, by the way.

5) You’re correct that ammunition is not restricted (much). As with anything firearm related, I don’t envy those who live in Cali or NY. Is there a point you were trying to make in this? Again, be as blunt as possible.

6) Frontier, Plum Crazy, and Olympic Arms all have/had polymer lower receivers. Plum and Oly both have well-deserved reputations for self-destructing. That’s sad, because the lower receiver of an AR is under extraordinarily low stress during firing; it’s about the same as the recoil impulse the shooter feels and is (logically) concentrated around where it actually interacts with the upper receiver (the buffer assembly and pivot pin).

As for uppers, do you find it curious that the only examples of polymer uppers in centerfire rifles (the XM8 and G36) both have track records of melting/deforming their uppers under non-auto fire? Also interesting to note that these are both short-stroke piston weapons, which means the heat generated by the expanded gasses never actually reaches the receiver; it’s vented out at the gas port. The only heat that the upper receivers of these weapons will experience comes from the chamber.

Anyway, Bushmaster actually does make a polymer upper receiver. Reading the prior two paragraphs, do you wanna take a gander at its reputation? Not that it matters, really. If you take a file to... three total places, I believe, the AR is untraceable. I only count two on the rifle in front of me but I’ll add that third just to cover myself. Polymer isn’t needed at all for “untraceable weapons”. You just need to remove their ability to trace it, which is just as effective as it never having been serialized at all.

7) Polymer rifles. They don’t exist as you describe them. The actions are still steel. Barrels are still steel. You cannot print out an action that can take the beating of a 65k+ PSI cartridge directly.

8) Polymer ammo. PCP makes good ammo by all accounts; never handled it myself but anything that lowers the weight of ammo is cool and useful. They also still use steel or brass bases for the extractor claw to grab onto. Extreme Polymer Research is much further along, but they only do handgun rounds. Since cases are the most expensive part of reloading, this kinda excites me. Not that the ammunition you use in the commission of a crime is relevant at all to the likelihood of a crime being committed or has any bearing whatsoever on the investigation to catch a bad guy shooter. You should stop watching TV if you think law enforcement can trace a weapon by the ammo it shoots with any kind of accuracy; two research institutes in Cali debunked that one, much to the state’s chagrin considering legislation at the time.

9)
Quote:
I'm not saying, panic, I'm not saying, live in fear, I'm not sensationalizing this situation. What I AM saying is, this essentially gives the means for someone to bang out lowers at 50c/piece or entire guns at a cost of about $20/rifle minus the barrel/barrel nut and bolt...Which you can actually buy on the street as well, for about $10...So, for $30, someone on the street could arguably have a working .338 with ceramic ammo...Capable of hitting 1mile+...With a rifle that's 100% untraceable in any regard other than the plastics that individual used...Because, again, any shooter with 1/2 a brain firing a rifle in that type of situation would take the bolt with them.

Ah, here it is.

You know, I tried to parody this and simply leave your text but substitute in the corrections. Just couldn’t do it. It’s too ridiculous. You are not buying a barrel assembly for $10 anywhere, to say anything of bolts and bolt carriers. The black market doesn’t care about assemblies; it sells working guns. It is beyond absurd to think that a polymer .338 AR with any barrel you could possibly get for $10 pose a threat to anyone but the user, least of all hit within ranging distance of a mile.
  • You’re ignoring the polymer startup cost.
  • The polymer can’t handle 64k PSI.
  • Barrels aren’t sold for ARs in that caliber, which means you’d require custom work to fit it.
  • You haven’t addressed the action, meaning the parts that physically manipulate a round, at all.

You wanna know what’s a lot easier and cheaper? Buying Russian “surplus”. Stealing. Filing serial numbers or using a flathead screwdriver to pop out serialed imprints.

Done.


Unbelievable. I seriously hope you’re never in a position of authority.

(If you’re trolling, however, well-freakin’-done. I approve.)
    
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post #209 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

Honestly, if it was decided that 3D printers needed that much regulation I think they would just be banned from the market...or perhaps only be approved for use by large businesses. I am still not sure which side I should be on yet even. I am trying to think what would happen to the world economy if all of a sudden there were a million people printing out goods rather than going to a store and buying them...and then what would happen at 10 million...100 million...
In a couple years I think we will be seeing 3D printing explode and it is going to make the data copyright infringement debate seem like two old ladies arguing over what tea is the best. Though this building your own gun issue might actually be a problem. No one has really mentioned this yet and I didn't realize this at first, but with the 3D printer it would take nearly no skill to build the gun part. If one person with the know how made the plan and distributed it...some one would just need the file and the software to read it and send the info to the printer. I said earlier how this is nothing new and people can do it with metal machining tools (and even wood as you mentioned), but to do so requires a lot of skill that cannot be learned by just reading an owners manual. As long as I knew how to turn on and configure the printer...I should be able to make whatever I have the designs for. Though the same can really be said machines that can hook up to a CAD program I guess.

Well if the cost per CC is the same as it is for regular inkjet printing ($3-5k /L), making something the size of a toaster could cost you $1500+

If that's the case, whats going to happen to the economy? anyone selling consumables for a 3d printer is going to be filthy, filthy rich.

How much does it cost to run a 3D printer? anyone?
 
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post #210 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

I'm actually really just advocating that when someone buys a 3D printer they do 2 minutes of paperwork.

Which implies a complication of lawful purchases, and a waste of tax money...some governmental agency is going to have to collect, maintain, disseminate, and secure this information.

It's also a gross violation of privacy and opens up all sorts of potential for abuse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

I, personally, wouldn't mind 2-3 minutes of paperwork when dropping 5-10k on a 3D printer though, to be as equally honest.

I most certainly would, and it would just force me to lie, or to get a printer via other means.

And yes, I am more than willing to break idiotic laws to spare myself two minutes of utter nonsense that no force in this universe has the right to subject me to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Had to do 20 minutes of paperwork just to apply for my stamp...

Just because you are a victim of red tape doesn't mean everyone else needs to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

It would definitely make the individual significantly easier to trace if there happened to be a sudden boom in shootings with plastic/polymer

For someone who apparently understands that people will do what it takes to get the things they want, it's really odd that you would expect little hurdles like these to make an difference. You also seem easily surprised by obvious solutions to simple problems.

If you need a lower receiver and all you have on hand is wood, you use wood.

If you need a 3D printer or CNC equipment and want to bypass hypothetical registration required to legitimately purchase one, you either steal one, use someone elses, or build one yourself piecemeal, just as you would with these weapons you want to control.

If you can get easy training to become a highly proficient marksman, you can be trained as a gunsmith...in the same techniques that were used to make precision weapons long before the existence of CNC or 3D printers.

Every potential "problem" or loophole you have presented is something that is not likely to be taken advantage of on any significant scale because there are easier means to the same end. Every potential "fix" you have suggested for such loopholes is something that would be completely trivial to work around.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [NBC] 3-D printed gun fires 6 shots — then falls apart