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[NBC] 3-D printed gun fires 6 shots — then falls apart - Page 34

post #331 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Vanelay View Post

I think he meant 200 years lol

Maybe. It makes a heck of a lot more sense than the 20 number.

And most likely 200 years from now, 3D printing will be good enough to do that. But then again, maybe by that time we will have Star Trek transporters and Phasers and the notion of an AR-15 will be pointless.

I really don't worry about things that look that far out into the future as far as "what if" technologies happen. Too many variables to deal with, and honestly, much beyond 40-50 years from now, I really won't care what happens ... because I'll be dead.

[Edit]

Well, I guess his 20 actually DID mean 20. My points stand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b3machi7ke View Post

Short and sweet of it is, 3-D printing will be a great resource that, with advances in materials, will have nearly limitless possibilities.

Agreed.
post #332 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

You obviously don't know the first thing about ballistics, firearms, or forensic science.
This is the LOWER RECEIVER of a weapon. There are very little moving parts there, but more importantly, this thing doesn't have to withstand the IMMENSE PRESSURE that a round generates to push a bullet down the barrel at high speed.
It's not like they are making a barrel, receiver, or even firing pin and can change the lands and grooves on a 3D Printed barrel, thus preventing the police from linking a fired bullet to a specific barrel ... or even a firing pin or ejector mechanism to a spend shell casing found a the scene.
Having a custom lower receiver does NOTHING to either PREVENT crime OR to help evade police identification AFTER the crime was committed.

You obviously don't know how to read. I specifically mentioned that all of that was hypothetical and revolved around whether or not they are eventually able to make a strong enough composite upper receiver assembly with barrel. I carry and wield firearms as part of my daily job, and I have a fair amount of knowledge in forensic science and law enforcement. The thing that is scary about this isn't that it makes cases hard to solve (they will require the same amount of effort, give or take - just a small goose chase on identifying the firearm, which will be inconclusive), or that it makes more people deadly - all of the people who have responded with retort towards this are correct. The scary part is that it puts more lethal weapons in more people's hands. The issue is just compounded by lack of barrel signature and serial number.
On the note of why not just get a full-blown CNC and build your own firearms that way - that costs money. Lots of money. I know, the price for the CNC is comparable to the price of the 3D printing technology, and that carbon fibre composite materials for 3D printing that would be required to make a full weapon that could withstand fire are slightly more expensive than most consumer grade plastics. They are still NOWHERE near as expensive as solid blocks of steel, aluminum, or other potential construction materials that you could CNC. My mindset is that cheap, disposable firearms could be produced and available to the criminal market. Putting more guns in more amateurs hands. Its not that it will increase crime, or that it will enable people to commit murder (they will do it either way, this will just ease the process for them)

Edit:
That said, I don't think 3d printing is a bad thing, and I'm not against it in any way. I'm disappointed in humanity for instantly turning a new(er) technology's head directly toward weaponry once again. We can't seem to get away from crime and war no matter how much we evolve. Such an unfortunate crux.
Edited by Xaero252 - 12/7/12 at 1:23pm
    
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post #333 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaero252 View Post

The scary part is that it puts more lethal weapons in more people's hands.

Even given the hypothetical of eventually coming up with a way to mass produce firearms, I find this highly unlikely. Weapons tech will have moved on by then. I look forward to a phased plasma rifle in the 40 Watt range. thumb.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaero252 View Post

The issue is just compounded by lack of barrel signature and serial number.

Since 'barrel signatures' largely don't exist (shoving a dense material down a form-fitting tube at speeds in excess of the speed of sound tends to smooth out indicator characteristics), and serial numbers can be remedied by a few cents worth of abrasive, the issue doesn't change at all. Silver lining is the investigators' jobs don't change at all. biggrin.gif
    
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post #334 of 440
Ah, the memory of failure of over dramatic legislation that was passed in my state and cause my brothers in MSP to have to do tons of extra work, and inconvenience Maryland shooters, just to abide by the "feel good law" than NEVER lead to the arrest, must less conviction of a single criminal.

I am, of course, talking about that silly law a few years back that had the Maryland State Police fire two rounds from every new gun sold and the ballistics of that weapon kept on file. Thankfully, that silly law was repealed since it didn't do anything except delay owners from getting their guns and causing massive over time spending at MSP.
post #335 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBEG View Post

Even given the hypothetical of eventually coming up with a way to mass produce firearms, I find this highly unlikely. Weapons tech will have moved on by then. I look forward to a phased plasma rifle in the 40 Watt range. thumb.gif
I don't see why you think this is so unlikely, we have firearms completely comprised of composite materials already, and we have airplanes made almost entirely of plastics that fly through the air at alarming speeds and endure immense friction and stress loads. I don't think its outlandish to presume that printing carbon fibre (which is already possible, to an extent) in the form of a weapon, or some new composite (which we always seem to be working on) wouldn't be up to the task, far before weapons tech evolves. Especially considering most of the Military weapons development is being focused on defensive weapons technology vice offensive weapons technology - the weapons we have now are more than sufficient - they kill things, and they kill things well. Railguns, and laser defense systems are the two major pushes right now, lowering the carry load on soldiers' backs is the minor push.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBEG View Post

Since 'barrel signatures' largely don't exist (shoving a dense material down a form-fitting tube at speeds in excess of the speed of sound tends to smooth out indicator characteristics), and serial numbers can be remedied by a few cents worth of abrasive, the issue doesn't change at all. Silver lining is the investigators' jobs don't change at all. biggrin.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_fingerprinting
I'll just leave this here; I know, Wikipedia etc. But the science does exist. Each weapon leaves unique markings on the bullets it fires, and this can be documented and tracked. Hell, they can even match the markings to a specific lot of firearms manufactured since the tools used to rifle barrels or bore them out wear out and that leaves signature markings as well. Anyways, the criminal investigator's job doesn't change, I noted this - all it does is make any effort spent on identifying the weapon wasted time, though there would likely be composite residue on the round, and they would probably not even bother trying to identify the weapon after this sort of firearm was in circulation for a period of time.
    
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post #336 of 440
The biggest problem if ballistic fingerprinting did work, is it would take anybody with a small round file (like used for sharpening chainsaws) just a few seconds of work to change the ballistic fingerprint. That's a lot of work testing, documenting, and maintaining records for something that is so easily bypassed.
post #337 of 440
Disposable murder weapon eek.gif
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post #338 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaero252 View Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_fingerprinting
I'll just leave this here; I know, Wikipedia etc. But the science does exist. Each weapon leaves unique markings on the bullets it fires, and this can be documented and tracked. Hell, they can even match the markings to a specific lot of firearms manufactured since the tools used to rifle barrels or bore them out wear out and that leaves signature markings as well. Anyways, the criminal investigator's job doesn't change, I noted this - all it does is make any effort spent on identifying the weapon wasted time, though there would likely be composite residue on the round, and they would probably not even bother trying to identify the weapon after this sort of firearm was in circulation for a period of time.

This is a case where reading the article would have made you reconsider posting it, specifically references 3 and 4. To date, only one conviction has come as a result of ballistic fingerprinting across California, Maryland, and New York. The California DoJ confirmed the poor reliability of the science. This article sums up the issue pretty well.

Regarding the first part, I've already stated why it is highly unlikely that a complete, working firearm can be printed any time in the near future. No 3D printer can print using materials capable of withstanding the forces exerted upon the weapon during firing. For frame of reference, steel SCUBA tanks can typically be filled to a bit over 4200 PSI before failure... roughly 20% of what a measly .22 LR generates within the chamber (20-25000 PSI). Pistol rounds will typically push between 20,000 and 40,000 PSI. Rifles typically between 45,000 and 65,000 PSI. Even Inconel, an outstanding metal in its own right, requires forging and heat treating to be used as a barrel.

Yes, the materials with which 3D printers can work will improve over time. Yes, the costs will drop, quality and precision will increase, and fab time will decrease. But it will take one hell of an innovation to allow 3D printers of any kind, personally-owned or not, to produce using materials comparable to forged and heat-treated alloys. I just don't see that being done within my lifetime or any of our children's lifetimes, if it's even possible.
    
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post #339 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saiyansnake View Post

Disposable murder weapon eek.gif
Yeah, just like a stolen .22 calibre pistol.
post #340 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saiyansnake View Post

Disposable murder weapon eek.gif

Hammers, bats, knives, and other striking devices have been around for millenia, what's your point?
 
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