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[Engadget] Intel sort of denies rumors about future CPUs being non-upgradeable - Page 3

post #21 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

Thing that sucks about BGA is that solder points can crack. It's the RROD all over again. I don't want the solder points to fail making someone forced to ether reflow the chip to the board every few moths or send it in. LGA doesn't have this problem. BGA is only good for OEM systems, Really normal customers don't really need much more of a choice then, Pentium, i3, or i5 for CPU choice.
BGA is a step backwards for us enthusiasts.
Has solder joint cracking been a legitimate issue in the past couple of years? To the best of my knowledge, the majority of the issues were caused by the inevitable learning curve that came with using lead-free solder.
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post #22 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

Has solder joint cracking been a legitimate issue in the past couple of years? To the best of my knowledge, the majority of the issues were caused by the inevitable learning curve that came with using lead-free solder.

Not saying it would be a big problem. Just for the users that do have to deal with that crap just because OEM's wanted to save a few bucks. Its just another place for things to go wrong.
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post #23 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

Thing that sucks about BGA is that solder points can crack. It's the RROD all over again. I don't want the solder points to fail making someone forced to ether reflow the chip to the board every few moths or send it in. LGA doesn't have this problem. BGA is only good for OEM systems, Really normal customers don't really need much more of a choice then, Pentium, i3, or i5 for CPU choice.
BGA is a step backwards for us enthusiasts.

I haven't really thought of it that way, But I agree!
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post #24 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

Thing that sucks about BGA is that solder points can crack. It's the RROD all over again. I don't want the solder points to fail making someone forced to ether reflow the chip to the board every few moths or send it in. LGA doesn't have this problem. BGA is only good for OEM systems, Really normal customers don't really need much more of a choice then, Pentium, i3, or i5 for CPU choice.
BGA is a step backwards for us enthusiasts.
Using a fairly singular issue on 7 year old hardware to talk about why something two years from now might be a bad idea is not a very convincing argument.

I wonder what the solder failure rate on Atom and AMD Fusion BGA boards is compared to user error failures on LGA. tongue.gif
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post #25 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

Thing that sucks about BGA is that solder points can crack. It's the RROD all over again. I don't want the solder points to fail making someone forced to ether reflow the chip to the board every few moths or send it in. LGA doesn't have this problem. BGA is only good for OEM systems, Really normal customers don't really need much more of a choice then, Pentium, i3, or i5 for CPU choice.
BGA is a step backwards for us enthusiasts.
Has solder joint cracking been a legitimate issue in the past couple of years? To the best of my knowledge, the majority of the issues were caused by the inevitable learning curve that came with using lead-free solder.

It has been an issue in the past with higher temps on soldered chipsets. The constant heating and cooling, which causes repeated expansion and contraction, eventually leads to micro cracks forming. Just look too the nvidia mobile chipsets as late as the 3xxm sets and even to the xbox 360 and ps3 issues. A socket is more durable from that standpoint, purely my opinion.

Also, the issue of repairing or replacing an individual component becomes more expensive and time consuming. Instead of a drop in fix you are talking about replacing the entire board. WHich means longer down time even if you were to get an expedited shipment.
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post #26 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michalius View Post

Using a fairly singular issue on 7 year old hardware to talk about why something two years from now might be a bad idea is not a very convincing argument.
I wonder what the solder failure rate on Atom and AMD Fusion BGA boards is compared to user error failures on LGA. tongue.gif

Not saying BGA wouldnt be good for OEM's.

But toss a i5 + cheap OEM board + heatsink + time (possible board warping over time), I bet they will see more BGA OEM failures then LGA failures over time. Note this is OEM so no user error.
Though BGA is getting to the point where it works vary well, so in 2-5 years in the future it could work vary well. Just for OEMS, Keep BGA away from enthusiasts. Upgrading a OEM computer is more of a 90s thing IMO
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post #27 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wattser93 View Post

How do they define "enthusiasts"? Unlocked i5? Unlocked i7? LGA2011 chips?
I can support Intel cutting their socketed line to a single i3 model, i5 unlocked, i7 unlocked, and LGA2011 chips, but if they cut out everything but the LGA2011 lines, it'll price a lot of us out of Intel CPUs.

Use of the word "enthusiasts" worries me for the sole reason that according to Retail Edge, you need to drop $300 on an i7 to be considered a serious gamer. When Intel makes press releases, they usually only apply the "enthusiast" moniker to LGA 2011/X79.

Could this be simple paranoia on my part? Sure, I naturally gravitate towards pessimism. Intel dancing around the issue in their "rebuttal" press release doesn't exactly fill me with confidence, though.
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post #28 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiOfPie View Post

Use of the word "enthusiasts" worries me for the sole reason that according to Retail Edge, you need to drop $300 on an i7 to be considered a serious gamer. When Intel makes press releases, they usually only apply the "enthusiast" moniker to LGA 2011/X79.
Could this be simple paranoia on my part? Sure, I naturally gravitate towards pessimism. Intel dancing around the issue in their "rebuttal" press release doesn't exactly fill me with confidence, though.
Gamer =/= Enthusiast. Why are you assuming there won't be a really good gaming BGA option?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

Not saying BGA wouldnt be good for OEM's.
But toss a i5 + cheap OEM board + heatsink + time (possible board warping over time), I bet they will see more BGA OEM failures then LGA failures over time. Note this is OEM so no user error.
Though BGA is getting to the point where it works vary well, so in 2-5 years in the future it could work vary well. Just for OEMS, Keep BGA away from enthusiasts. Upgrading a OEM computer is more of a 90s thing IMO
This is Broadwell, which will have TDP similar to current Atom processors. I don't think the comparison is fitting.
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post #29 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michalius View Post

Gamer =/= Enthusiast. Why are you assuming there won't be a really good gaming BGA option?

Oh, I don't have any doubts that the processors themselves will continue to be good. My main lament about the socket debacle is the principle of the thing; that, if true, it could prevent the end user from performing a drop-in upgrade (unless they shell out primo dinero for Intel's flagship platform) and could potentially make life difficult for the mobo manufacturers.
Edited by PiOfPie - 12/7/12 at 4:28pm
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post #30 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiOfPie View Post

Oh, I don't have any doubts that the processors themselves will continue to be good. My main lament about the socket debacle is the principle of the thing; that, if true, it could prevent the end user from performing a drop-in upgrade (unless they shell out primo dinero for Intel's flagship platform) and could potentially make life difficult for the mobo manufacturers.

That's pretty similar to what I said in the last thread on this topic.

Intel CPU's are wildly popular; their motherboards aren't (in the enthusiast/DIY market at least). Intel would have a couple of options:

1. They could tell the other board manufacturers that they could only build for the super high end, and that Intel would be the only mobo provider for every other Intel CPU. I don't see this going over well at all. Even the big boys like Asus, Gigabyte, etc make far more revenue from their mainstream/budget lines than they do from the high end enthusiast segment.

2. They could sell the CPUs in bulk to the other board manufacturers, and saddle them with the extra hassle of attaching the CPU. There would likely be issues with warranty on these combined products, since BGA makes it much more difficult to diagnose a defective CPU vs mobo. Would Intel pay for the testing to determine the faulty component, or would they offer a flat rate reimbursement/discount for each warranty claim? Then there is the problem with inventory...what happens if a board partner orders 10k CPUs from Intel and produces 10k units, only to discover that the CPU has a defect, or just isn't popular enough to sell all those units?


Also like I said in that earlier thread: BGA is a good idea for OEM systems with a low price point, or ultra-thin tablets/notebooks. For mainstream desktops, it's a terrible idea and I don't see it happening.
 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Engadget] Intel sort of denies rumors about future CPUs being non-upgradeable