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Fan air flow disruptions?

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
I also posted this on the Fractal Design Case Club, i hope this is also an appropriate forum section for this.
I need some advice from the people who use the Arc Midi or any1 that has a good grasp of air flow.
I don't know if the bottom hard drive cage is removable or not, or even rotatable which sucks imo frown.gif
I was wondering how much the bottom hard drive cage will interfere with the 140mm bottom front fan's airflow.
I drew a diagram on my assumption on the airflow inside the case.

I will not use any water cooling in this build. I want to try and get as much out of air cooling as possible from this case. Also i will be using a Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo for my CPU cooler (i7 3770k).
Edited by james990 - 12/10/12 at 12:27am
post #2 of 16
Yep, the air flow in that pic is good! Now the air cage should not be too bothersome for air flow, but if you are not using it chances it will be removable. I would not worry either way.
 
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BitoHeaven
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post #3 of 16
Looks good.
Might try taking out the unused PCI slots. The CPU exhaust usually doesn't line up with back vent and some of it may flow down.
Same applied to GPU exhaust and the lower PCI slot covers.
Having the PCI slots may let air escape case easier.
Or it might let air in. Easy to smoke test with an incense stick or cigarette. wink.gif
post #4 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Looks good.
Might try taking out the unused PCI slots. The CPU exhaust usually doesn't line up with back vent and some of it may flow down.
Same applied to GPU exhaust and the lower PCI slot covers.
Having the PCI slots may let air escape case easier.
Or it might let air in. Easy to smoke test with an incense stick or cigarette. wink.gif
Ok thanks for your continuous feed back guys.
Well...i dont really want to remove unused PCI slots, because im trying to create pressurized airflow in a certain direction (top back since hot air naturally rises). If i remove the PCI slots the pressure and flow will greatly disperse making these fans kinda useless.
This is the updated diagram:

  • I won't use the side fan
  • I will only use the 1 top exhaust to the left and the rear exhaust to help compliment and not disrupt a slight push/pull config for the CPU cooler (the 212 Evo will only use 1 fan since tests done on push/pull 212 Evo didn't really yield that great results, hence why the 2 top exhaust case fans will do the pulling for the sake of it.)
  • The 3 intake case fans will be set to a lower RPM while the two exhaust fans will be set to higher RPM's.
  • The remaining unused side vent and top vents will be sealed off.
Found this very useful
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/cooling-air-pressure-heatsink,3058-5.html

Am i doing it right?
post #5 of 16
It's obvious you have studied and thought this out very well. thumb.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by james990 View Post

Ok thanks for your continuous feed back guys.
Well...i dont really want to remove unused PCI slots, because im trying to create pressurized airflow in a certain direction (top back since hot air naturally rises). If i remove the PCI slots the pressure and flow will greatly disperse making these fans kinda useless.
Hot air rises with no outside influence. Forced air heating / air conditioning are good example of how "hot air rises" does not apply.
First off your image shows heat coming off back/top of GPU. There isn't much heat radiating off of back/top and almost no heated air on the back/top. The front/bottom of GPU's spread heated air everywhere. Even reference models leak some out. Opening up the PCI slots lets your intake fans / airflow flow toward back of case moving heated air out the PCI slots away from GPU intake and giving it more fresh/cool air
Quote:
Originally Posted by james990 View Post

  • I won't use the side fan
  • I will only use the 1 top exhaust to the left and the rear exhaust to help compliment and not disrupt a slight push/pull config for the CPU cooler (the 212 Evo will only use 1 fan since tests done on push/pull 212 Evo didn't really yield that great results, hence why the 2 top exhaust case fans will do the pulling for the sake of it.)
  • The 3 intake case fans will be set to a lower RPM while the two exhaust fans will be set to higher RPM's.
  • The remaining unused side vent and top vents will be sealed off.
* side fan may or may not help. Hard to tell without trying it to see. I don't use side fans on mine but wife's does.
*Indeed
*Might try different speeds and see what temps do.
*Indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by james990 View Post

Found this very useful
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/cooling-air-pressure-heatsink,3058-5.html
Am i doing it right?
Some good points.
Have you read ehume's thread "How to decide on a case for air cooling"?
http://www.overclock.net/t/1041926/how-to-decide-on-a-case-for-air-cooling-warning-pics
post #6 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

It's obvious you have studied and thought this out very well. thumb.gif
Hot air rises with no outside influence. Forced air heating / air conditioning are good example of how "hot air rises" does not apply.
First off your image shows heat coming off back/top of GPU. There isn't much heat radiating off of back/top and almost no heated air on the back/top. The front/bottom of GPU's spread heated air everywhere. Even reference models leak some out. Opening up the PCI slots lets your intake fans / airflow flow toward back of case moving heated air out the PCI slots away from GPU intake and giving it more fresh/cool air
* side fan may or may not help. Hard to tell without trying it to see. I don't use side fans on mine but wife's does.
*Indeed
*Might try different speeds and see what temps do.
*Indeed.
Some good points.
Have you read ehume's thread "How to decide on a case for air cooling"?
http://www.overclock.net/t/1041926/how-to-decide-on-a-case-for-air-cooling-warning-pics
I'll take all that into consideration.
+ yeah im aware that the GPU doesnt disperse heat in a specific direction nor are they good at it, but i drew the heat from the GPU going up from what i assume is the air flow/pressure forcing it up.
& interesting link. Thanks.

Btw, i have chosen to upgrade to the Noctua nh-d14
Also, i don't think my MOBO supports up to five 3 pin fans (excluding the CPU cooler fans), The Fractal design case comes with a 3 channel fan controller, but would I be better off getting a 5 channel fan controller?
I was looking around a bit and this seems ideal for a cheap price:
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9_511&products_id=18039
It supports up to 30Watts and is 3 pin.
I will be using only Fractal Design Silent 140mm fans.

Opinions?

Edit: So basically what is suggested in that link & by what you are saying is that i shouldn't simply focus on driving air up through the computer, but remove the unused expansion slots in the back to allow any airflow in that direction to be released, rather than forcing it up.
Sounds fair.
Edited by james990 - 12/12/12 at 3:42am
post #7 of 16
Which Fractal Design are you using? I have an old R2 moddified to use 140mm fans in front and vents cut out in bottom and back. Am experimenting with and with out top vent panels in and out.

You might consider using PWM fans for case and control them with motherboard dependent on heat.

I have 5 Thermalright TY-140 series fans and a Scythe Setsugen cooler on my 6570 GPU. All TY-140 series fan are PWM controlled by CPU fan socket on motherboard and idle at 660rpm and with Phanteks PH-TC14PE cooler on 980 it's 22-25c idle and below 50c full load and fans spin at 1000rpm. Very quiet even under load.

TC14PE has a duct from cooler to back vent so all heat from cooler goes out the back.
I also build duct / box between motherboard and cooler with cutouts for motherboard heatsinks and heatpipe ratiators so air blown by bottom 20mm of intake fan below cooler goes into it and pushes air out threw the heatsink and heatpipe radiators on motherboard. The I/O plate is not installed for more airflow too.

And yes to your edit. Path of least resistance is the easiest and quietest.
post #8 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Which Fractal Design are you using? I have an old R2 moddified to use 140mm fans in front and vents cut out in bottom and back. Am experimenting with and with out top vent panels in and out.
You might consider using PWM fans for case and control them with motherboard dependent on heat.
I have 5 Thermalright TY-140 series fans and a Scythe Setsugen cooler on my 6570 GPU. All TY-140 series fan are PWM controlled by CPU fan socket on motherboard and idle at 660rpm and with Phanteks PH-TC14PE cooler on 980 it's 22-25c idle and below 50c full load and fans spin at 1000rpm. Very quiet even under load.
TC14PE has a duct from cooler to back vent so all heat from cooler goes out the back.
I also build duct / box between motherboard and cooler with cutouts for motherboard heatsinks and heatpipe ratiators so air blown by bottom 20mm of intake fan below cooler goes into it and pushes air out threw the heatsink and heatpipe radiators on motherboard. The I/O plate is not installed for more airflow too.
And yes to your edit. Path of least resistance is the easiest and quietest.
I'm getting the Arc Midi.
Whats PWM?
I don't think there are any Thermalright TY-140's available where i live. Surely the Fractal Designs 140mm fans aren't that bad, are they?
I don't think my MOBO support's up to 3-pin 5 case fans
(heres my build)
GPU: ASUS GTX670-DC2-2GD5
Boot HD: Samsung 830 Series SATA3 256G
MOBO: Asrock Z77 Extreme4
RAM: G.Skill-Ares 1600Mhz 1.5v 16GB (16GB is plenty for the rendering)
CPU: i7-3770K ( Aside from gaming i do 3D and image rendering)
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D14 (Big ass mofo cooler hoping to safely OC to 4.5GHz)
PSU: Corsair TX-650M(enough for an OC'd GPU, CPU +fan cooled system)
Sound card: Built in
Case: Fractal Design ARC-Mid USB3.0
Edited by james990 - 12/12/12 at 5:39am
post #9 of 16
The picture you have in post #4 is accurate and works pretty good. Even the video card, which in my case exhausts very little air out of the case, most of it is exhausted in the case.

In my R4, I am using the 2 x 140mm Fractal fans in the factory locations, (Front and back) and a Scythe 140mm in the bottom position just as you show. I am not using the top back fan or the second front fan. So I am using 3 case fans. (Not counting the PSU, which does it's own intake and exhaust.)

The Fractal fans are fine. At full power they are louder then my Scythe, but that is to be expected because the Scythe only spins at ~600rpm when the Fractals will do over 1100 rpms. When you back the power down the Fractals are very quiet, just like the Scythe.

All fans are running on low except for the exhaust which is on 5 and the Scythe which is on full. (Remember my Scythe only spins 600 rpm @12v so it gets full power.)

I have an ASRock motherboard so I have been doing my fan adjustments with AXTU. Once I am satisfied I might just make the adjustments in the BIOS instead and just use AXTU to monitor. (Not quite confident in AXTU's reliability, kinda glitchy at times, doesn't remember settings at times, or I'm doing it wrong.)

I have not tried the fan controller yet, it looks like I won't be using it as my fans don't all run at the same speed. This also saves me running an extra molex cable from my PSU, So I may even remove the fan controller for now. (I do hear the fan controllers work well at the medium setting.) I have nothing against the controller, just I let my situation dictate which route I took as I went along.
You might end up using the controller and the motherboard, whatever it takes.

I do not have any PWM fans, so my fans are all connected to the 3-pin plugs on the motherboard. The 4-pin plugs won't adjust the speed of 3-pin fans. Same with the CPU fans, the are both plugged into the CPU2 3-pin for adjust-ability. not the CPU1 4-pin.

I currently have an idle motherboard temperature of 29C/84F after 24 hours and an idle CPU temp of 38C/100F. I think these temps are pretty good, especially when you consider the case now is virtually silent. It's easy enough to lower the CPU temps, but as soon as I run my Hyper N520 CPU fans higher then low, they make noise. I knew I was going to have to accept some temperature rise in order to get a quiet case.

I still don't fully understand the AXTU, example I think I have my chassis fans basically set on "manual", but the software does say "Fan Target Speed" which implies that it might be controlled by something, by what I don't know. Both the 4-pin plugs have a "Target temperature" along with the "Fan target speed", which makes sense.
I guess I will have to stress test my rig to get something over 45C/113F to see if my 3-pin fans will speed up. If not I will get PWM fans for one chassis plug and CPU fans. I would still have to keep some of the 3-pin though.

On my R4 I can remove the bottom cage with a screwdriver. I only use a single HDD, so I plan to do this soon. So hopefully your Arc will have screws as well, if not just drill them out.

Very satisfied with this setup, it is the quietest I have ever had with a store bought case.
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post #10 of 16
TY-140 is first generation. Thermalright still makes them but don't think they are marketing them individually. TY-141 has little different blades and ball bearing motor. TY-145 is same as TY-141 with black housing and white fan. TY-147 has fan blades like TY-140 but is ball bearing with black housing and white fan. TY-143 is on steroids with TY-140 fan blades in red housing and orange blades it spins up to 2500rpm. All idle at same 660rpm and all make the same noise up to 1300rpm. Above that of course the TY-143 gets progressively louder.

PWM is pulse-width modulation. Basically it's a small circuit board in fan. Motherboard gets a rpm signal from fan and sends out a PWM signal to fan. Ciruit board uses that signal to control the 12v power lead to fan by sending pulses of power so fan spins at the speed the motherboard wants it to. The advantage is you can use a PWM splitter that uses plugs into PSU molex connector to power the fans. You have a master PWM socket to plug you master fan into that send the rpm signal to motherboard and a PWM plug to plug into motherboard PWM socket. The PWM signal coming from the motherboard is split into 23/4 leads to other fans. All the other fans use the same PWM signal to control their rpm. If they are all of similar rpm range they all spin as similar rpm as master fan.

The Fractal Design fans are okay but not PWM.

Your motherboard has 1x PWM and 3x 3pin connections. I'm guessing like most other motherboards the 4pin can be used for either PWM or 3pin voltage control depending on how it's set in Bios. You can set each of these motherboard connectors from Bios to control fan speeds. No idea what the total fan power load motherboard can handle.
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