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[DailyTech] IBM Manufactures Nanophotonics on 90 nm CMOS, Demos 25 GBPS Per Channel - Page 4

post #31 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

They are always there. Sometimes companies underestimate them, but forget that IBM is their father. And fathers are wise smile.gif
If this technology advances, they will have made the only thing that was missing in my lifetime puzzle. Optical nanoconnections.

yeah IBM has always been there in the background producing the truly amazing stuff
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post #32 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by xXSebaSXx View Post

Think of it this way: For every "great" step forward in technology there is always that "red headed step child" that came a couple years earlier only to be swept under the rug and forgotten.
Anyone here have any LaserDiscs that they watch? smile.gif
How about some miniDiscs? Doesn't apply if you're in the music business.
Hell; anyone here have a Sony Digital Camera that worked with the tiny optical discs? Or maybe the HDDCameras of yonder?
It's all an evolutionary process. They have to give birth to the red headed step child in order to realize what they did wrong and fix it for the true "heir to the throne". smile.gif
My question to you is: Why would we need optical if we have Quantum? I know physics tells us that nothing can move faster than the old friend "C". But since the thing we like about quantum particles is that they can both "be" and "not be" at the same time, or "be in two places at once", or "be ON and OFF" at the same time... Wouldn't that be much faster than even "C"? I mean; even when moving at 670K mph; a photon would still take a small portion of time to move from A to B... Whereas a quantum particle would be at A and B from the get go.

I don't think there's anything that indicates our ability to use quantum computing to it's full potential for a long, long time. Even assuming there is a method found to create a truly stable quantum computer relatively soon, the ability to use it to it's full potential still requires a staggering amount of experimentation.

From what I've seen, most of the quantum languages devised at the moment are still building off of the "classic" languages. If you ask me this is where the evolution process you speak of will hit, once we can figure out how to use whatever kind of quantum computer we come up with. It will only be then that we can start learning to optimize the programming to it's fullest.

With that said, this light-based system still shows much potential to increase our abilities multiplicatively, as well as it's potential to link multiple systems together in an incredibly efficient way. Imagine every processor in a HPC having their QPIs directly linked in a fully connected network without the power usage of a copper-based system and you'll start to see what we can do with something like this. Not to mention that it will not rely on new and experimental languages.

edit: What you say here is not exactly how they are intending to use quantum computing, AFAIK. It's not so much about the speed but the amount of data that can be handled with QC that makes it so attractive.
Edited by un-midas touch - 12/11/12 at 5:19am
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post #33 of 55
Quantum computing is not "the magic wand" making all our computational constraints melt away. It's awesome for some tasks but some of the things that are today regularly done on computers are quite ineffective when you try to do them in a quantum computers. Most of the tasks that are awesome for quantum computing are the same which are relatively easy to make paralell today. In a very nutshell, the "point" of quantum computer is the superposition principle - as quantum theory is a linear theory you can compose a solution to a quantum problem by adding togethter all the the solutions. I.e., you can go through all the possible solutions for some problems simultaneously.

If anything then these chips talked about in the OP should make quantum computers easier to (potentially) implement eventually in commercial scale. However, even if we would be able to make perfectly stable and usable quantum computer today which would be cheap enough to be had in every household, if so desired, it would not mean that we will be throwing away our old-fashioned-regular-computers as for some stuff these old-fashined things are better suited. More likely scenario would be that a quantum "computer" or QPU or whatever you would like to call it would be sitting as part of your CPU, on mobo or on some separate special card and you would have a hybrid system which takes advantage of the quantum stuff for the tasks where it makes sense and does not use cannon for hunting fleas by trying to make everything work on QPU.

BTW - in my opinion the most likely place for the quantum chip to reside in a computer, once they are properly functional would be a GPU.
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post #34 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishV8 View Post

but would this type of computing be more sensitive to heat than a traditional one.
How so?
Quote:
Originally Posted by xXSebaSXx View Post

My question to you is: Why would we need optical if we have Quantum? I know physics tells us that nothing can move faster than the old friend "C". But since the thing we like about quantum particles is that they can both "be" and "not be" at the same time, or "be in two places at once", or "be ON and OFF" at the same time... Wouldn't that be much faster than even "C"? I mean; even when moving at 670K mph; a photon would still take a small portion of time to move from A to B... Whereas a quantum particle would be at A and B from the get go.
Two different things here:

Optical interconnect allows for higher throughput. This from ISP information... and is dated from 2002 since we can multiplex more channel now but look at these values:
Copper is good for 2.5km and can carry 1.5 Mb/s.
Fiber is good for 200km and can carry 2.5+ Gb/s.

Quantum computing on the other hand is technology that will solve problems that are very parallel in nature. (i.e. NP-complete problems).


There also concepts of optical CPUs... which we may still maybe useful for more serial (or cheaper) work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

Imagine every processor in a HPC having their QPIs directly linked in a fully connected network without the power usage of a copper-based system and you'll start to see what we can do with something like this. Not to mention that it will not rely on new and experimental languages.
edit: What you say here is not exactly how they are intending to use quantum computing, AFAIK. It's not so much about the speed but the amount of data that can be handled with QC that makes it so attractive.
HPC are already linked through optical fiber.

Quantum computing is not about the amount of data... it's the speed. They can calculate every possible outcome simutaneously using the concept of superposition.

A classic example would be the Travelling Salesman problem. What's the short distance a saleman can travel between all the cities he needs to visit? With a few cities, it's easy... but as you add cities, it gets exponentially harder and computers today have to brute force the problem by calculating every possible route. A quantum computer can calculate every single route at once and provide the solution. Note, this is how encryption works as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

Quantum computing is not "the magic wand" making all our computational constraints melt away. It's awesome for some tasks but some of the things that are today regularly done on computers are quite ineffective when you try to do them in a quantum computers. Most of the tasks that are awesome for quantum computing are the same which are relatively easy to make paralell today. In a very nutshell, the "point" of quantum computer is the superposition principle - as quantum theory is a linear theory you can compose a solution to a quantum problem by adding togethter all the the solutions. I.e., you can go through all the possible solutions for some problems simultaneously.
If anything then these chips talked about in the OP should make quantum computers easier to (potentially) implement eventually in commercial scale. However, even if we would be able to make perfectly stable and usable quantum computer today which would be cheap enough to be had in every household, if so desired, it would not mean that we will be throwing away our old-fashioned-regular-computers as for some stuff these old-fashined things are better suited. More likely scenario would be that a quantum "computer" or QPU or whatever you would like to call it would be sitting as part of your CPU, on mobo or on some separate special card and you would have a hybrid system which takes advantage of the quantum stuff for the tasks where it makes sense and does not use cannon for hunting fleas by trying to make everything work on QPU.
BTW - in my opinion the most likely place for the quantum chip to reside in a computer, once they are properly functional would be a GPU.

Agreed. Just don't forget CPU vs GPU difference will be blurring in the next few years.... by the time we see quantum chips in the a non-enterprise system, they will be the same (for the most part).
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post #35 of 55
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post #36 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

HPC are already linked through optical fiber.
Quantum computing is not about the amount of data... it's the speed. They can calculate every possible outcome simutaneously using the concept of superposition.
A classic example would be the Travelling Salesman problem. What's the short distance a saleman can travel between all the cities he needs to visit? With a few cities, it's easy... but as you add cities, it gets exponentially harder and computers today have to brute force the problem by calculating every possible route. A quantum computer can calculate every single route at once and provide the solution. Note, this is how encryption works as well.

Yes but being on-die is still going to be big leap (not in terms of our ability to do it but in terms of what it can do), which was my point, and also seems to be a prime motivation of IBM. Look at slide #3. Once you integrate optical I/O into microprocessors, copper can be reduced to little more than a power delivery medium.

As far as quantum computing, this is where I got my assumption that data volume is also a big part of the benefits of quantum computing:

http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/02/ibm-quantum-milestone/?utm_source=Contextly&utm_medium=RelatedLinks&utm_campaign=Previous
Quote:
If you then put two qubits together, they can hold four values at once: 00, 01, 10, and 11. And as you add more and more qubits, you can build a system that’s exponentially more powerful than a classic computer. You could, say, crack the world’s strongest encryption algorithms in a matter of seconds. As IBM points out, a 250-qubit quantum computer would contain more bits that there are particles in the universe.

Feel free to poke holes in any erroneous assumptions though, DuckieHo, as you seem to be one of the only skilled debaters I've encountered here (I wouldn't even count myself as such).
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post #37 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2002dunx View Post

That's 670 x 10^6 mph....
Given that these solutions are a decade away from Government budgets, "we" aren't likely to be allowed such power in the near future.
IMHO
dunx

Sorry... My bad... It was late and I was under the influence of some sleeping pills. smile.gif But yeah; stuff like this has to filter through Defense to Corporate and then to consumer... But we'll get it eventually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by videoman5 View Post

It's not about speed of the signal, so much as being able to have gates that can simultaneously handle different signals. A gate that uses electricity can only handle one signal at a time. With an optical gate, I can input multiple wavelengths and get accurate outputs that correspond to the input wavelength.
Here's a poorly drawn MSPaint example. In both circuits, I simultaneously input 3 (0011) and 6 (0110). The left circuit uses electrical signals, which means the two inputs collide and the resulting input is 7 (0111). On the output, since only one electrical signal can occupy the line, output B is erroneously made false. The right circuit uses optical signals, and since multiple wavelengths can occupy a fiber-line simultaneously, and the gates can apply logic to two (or more) different input wavelengths simultaneously, and output accordingly, I can run two signals through the same circuit without any interference between the two different inputs or outputs.

I get your multiple streams via optic... I'll preface this next part by saying that my knowledge of physics is limited to the two years I took of it in HS over 20 years ago and we definitely did not touch on quantum physics; hell... I don't think WE knew what QP was back then.

I understand the limitation of electric transmission and I get that optical transmission would allow for simultaneous transfers, but wouldn't quantum also allow for that and at a much smaller scale? I mean; if we're talking about optical fibers here (even if they're microscopic); they're still made of matter and that matter is made of molecules and those molecules are made of atoms and those atoms are made of subatomic particles (quantum particles)... So those would be magnitudes smaller than any optic fiber we can manufacture... And if I understand it right; they'd also be able to do simultaneous transfers (both places at once - on/off at once - etc); only difference would be that light would be going from A to B (super fast mind you) where with QP the data would, in essence, be at B the moment is was created at A.

So there you go... My HS understanding of quantum phyiscs... Chances of my view of the thing being wrong? I'd say 100% +/- 0.00000000001% margin of error. But there is still hope. smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

I don't think there's anything that indicates our ability to use quantum computing to it's full potential for a long, long time. Even assuming there is a method found to create a truly stable quantum computer relatively soon, the ability to use it to it's full potential still requires a staggering amount of experimentation.
From what I've seen, most of the quantum languages devised at the moment are still building off of the "classic" languages. If you ask me this is where the evolution process you speak of will hit, once we can figure out how to use whatever kind of quantum computer we come up with. It will only be then that we can start learning to optimize the programming to it's fullest.
With that said, this light-based system still shows much potential to increase our abilities multiplicatively, as well as it's potential to link multiple systems together in an incredibly efficient way. Imagine every processor in a HPC having their QPIs directly linked in a fully connected network without the power usage of a copper-based system and you'll start to see what we can do with something like this. Not to mention that it will not rely on new and experimental languages.
edit: What you say here is not exactly how they are intending to use quantum computing, AFAIK. It's not so much about the speed but the amount of data that can be handled with QC that makes it so attractive.

Agreed... I'd be willing to bet that people from my generation (70s baby here) won't be around to see it happen, but I'd also be willing to be that before I croak (granted I live to be 80something); we'll have proofs of concept and some raw implementations of it. I think of it as sort of a Moore's law of knowledge... It only takes one person/institution/company to figure out how to make a proof of concept work and that spreads like wildfire and people build on it.
Edited by xXSebaSXx - 12/11/12 at 10:44pm
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post #38 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

Yes but being on-die is still going to be big leap (not in terms of our ability to do it but in terms of what it can do), which was my point, and also seems to be a prime motivation of IBM. Look at slide #3. Once you integrate optical I/O into microprocessors, copper can be reduced to little more than a power delivery medium.
As far as quantum computing, this is where I got my assumption that data volume is also a big part of the benefits of quantum computing:
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/02/ibm-quantum-milestone/?utm_source=Contextly&utm_medium=RelatedLinks&utm_campaign=Previous
Feel free to poke holes in any erroneous assumptions though, DuckieHo, as you seem to be one of the only skilled debaters I've encountered here (I wouldn't even count myself as such).
The CPU to CPU links aren't just an interconnect issue though. In theory, you could load up a single Xeon with a dozen QPI. The CPU-to-CPU architecture has to change.... (That's why AMD bought SeaMicro BTW).

It's not data volume... but possible outcomes.

i.e. I have every possible English alphabetic character combination of a 4 letter word. (26^4) Having this list is useful for knowing every possible value. But it doesn't actually store any of this data.... the data has to either collapsed into a few probable values or written out to a storage medium.
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post #39 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

The CPU to CPU links aren't just an interconnect issue though. In theory, you could load up a single Xeon with a dozen QPI. The CPU-to-CPU architecture has to change.... (That's why AMD bought SeaMicro BTW).

I suppose there needs to be some kind of "central" QPI for the benefits I was envisioning (is there such a thing?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

It's not data volume... but possible outcomes.
i.e. I have every possible English alphabetic character combination of a 4 letter word. (26^4) Having this list is useful for knowing every possible value. But it doesn't actually store any of this data.... the data has to either collapsed into a few probable values or written out to a storage medium.

Thinking more on all of this it appears to be over my head. What I can see is that this will be awesomely, if not almost dangerously, more powerful when it comes to future prediction type software. Not so much as in you can actually predict the future, but because the rate at which viably accurate predictions could theoretically be made would increase so much that systems such as financial predictions would stand a chance to break due to "feedback."

Which leads me to believe that the chance for public use of this technology is basically nil.
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post #40 of 55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by un-midas touch View Post

I suppose there needs to be some kind of "central" QPI for the benefits I was envisioning (is there such a thing?)
With SATA, PCIe, DDR4, etc, interconnects have moved to a high-frequency point-to-point topography. We have moved away from electrical buses because the shared signalling is hard to maintain at high frequency. Since light can be superpositioned, we can go back to a bus-like concept.... one interface that is shared by multiple devices.

Most implementations of buses are by interrupts (maybe by clock intervals?). With optical interconnects, each device can request a specific wavelength, frequency, or orthogonal frequency. As long as each device is using something different, they can all send signals down the same physical line.
Edited by DuckieHo - 12/14/12 at 7:05am
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