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[Official] Creative Sound Blaster Z, Zx & ZxR Series Club - Page 440

post #4391 of 5632
Hi All,

Looking for a bit of advice from those in the know; I've done a bit of research but I'm not quite sure where it all leads up to with regards to my questions...

I recently purchased a pair of DT 770 250 Ohm and 80 Ohm, along with a SMSL M3. After trialling those for a while I ended up returning the 80's as they were a bit too heavy in the mid for me, didn't quite sound "right" (to me) over the 250's.

I then purchased a Soundblaster Z (for the gaming aspect) and found it to be ok, but not fantastic, so I returned that and opted for a ZxR instead. My opinion of the ZxR can be summed up with the phrase "Oh.... Oh my!". As a result I've decided to return the SMSL and just stick with the ZxR and DT 770 250's.

Before anyone jumps on the band wagon saying "you can get better sound with a DAC" or "Positional audio is crap, stereo is better"; that's not the point of this post. I mostly game, never watch movies (on my PC) and occasionally listen to music, but when I do that, it's only ever streamed from the likes of Youtube, so thank you (I realise a few hundred audiophiles just had meltdown reading that, I do apologise!), I know the logic, but I'm happy with my setup for my purposes. Also, the choice of the DT770's is due to needing closed back headphones due to environment.

So with that in mind, here goes!

The sound quality of the DT 770 Pro 250 Ohm's with the ZxR is simply fantastic to my ears, and probably the best I've (personally) heard, which means although I realise there is better out there, I don't know what I'm missing, so that's fine smile.gif

However in heavy bass / action situations one thing I do find is that the bass tends to get a touch muddy or flabby, which I didn't notice as much using the SMSL M3. That said, the M3 didn't really have quite enough bass for my tastes either.

So I know that the ZxR has replaceable OPAmps, and that's something I'm going to look into, along with possibly a cap-mod I've seen floating around from some mad geniuses that make the ZxR look like Gilligan's raft, but before I go down that route I want to get some clarity on some other elements.

Firstly, I hear that the Z card had a somewhat high output impedance of 22 Ohms. I'm also hearing that the ZxR has a better, lower impedance, but I'm hearing conflicting numbers between 10-20 ohms, depending on where I look. I've also heard that ideally, you want an 8:1 ratio (simplified) to get the best match, which means, I believe, that my setup is a bit unbalanced. So wit that said, should I be looking to get some impedance increasing adaptors then switch the ZxR over to high gain 600 Ohm mode? Would that do anything to tighten up the bass and increase sound quality / fullness at all, or have no effect whatsoever?

Further to that, would I end up damaging my DT's if I were to try switching to high gain 600 Ohm output but with low volume but WITHOUT impedance filters? I know that headphones CAN be damaged by amping too high, but I can't find anything definitive and appropriate to these.

Finally, although I head multiple complaints about using the ZxR with the ACM (headphone breakout module / volume knob etc), I can't find any information on what Windows volume I should have set. Through my own experience historically I know setting motherboard volumes, for example, to 100% would tend to cause clipping, (line-feeding, virtual sound devices etc) and that the best option tends to be somewhere between 70-90%, then using the volume off the virtual device to drive it further, but I wondered if anyone had any opinions on the matter when it came to the ZxR's ACM? Of course, this is easy enough for me to test, but I'm a bit audio-blind at the moment from other activities that I can't convince myself currently.

Thanks in advance for any help and clarity any of you can provide! And by all means, if I'm misunderstanding anything by what I've written, please feel free to correct me!

-WryZed
post #4392 of 5632
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCmember View Post

Could it be because the sound is processed by an onboard processor rather than the CPU?

The post-mixing effects for output and pre-mixing effects for input (EQ, SBX, voice filtering) should all be processed by the 4 DSP cores, the actual mixing side is handled by windows, of which should take virtually no CPU time unless you have a crapload of applications running and playing audio.

Things that can cause driver latency however are memory leaks (with or without garbage collection), continuous list/array resizing or general repeated allocation and de-allocation of memory where the drivers need to link windows to the hardware, in this case the main part being WASAPI buffers to the DSPs. Many cases of poor memory management result in stuttering and stalling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WryZed View Post

would I end up damaging my DT's if I were to try switching to high gain 600 Ohm output but with low volume but WITHOUT impedance filters? I know that headphones CAN be damaged by amping too high, but I can't find anything definitive and appropriate to these.

I'd doubt the headphones could be damaged, at least not before damaging your ears first. To over-current any form of electrical load generally involves giving it a higher voltage than what it's designed for, of which in the case of headphones (and speakers) means the output volume will be much louder as a result.

More experienced personnel with headphone specifics possibly know better though...
   
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post #4393 of 5632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul17041993 View Post


I'd doubt the headphones could be damaged, at least not before damaging your ears first. To over-current any form of electrical load generally involves giving it a higher voltage than what it's designed for, of which in the case of headphones (and speakers) means the output volume will be much louder as a result.

More experienced personnel with headphone specifics possibly know better though...

Hi Paul,

Yes this is my thought too, but likewise looking for more confirmation; The gain switch basically has a normal setting of 33 to 300 ohms, with high for 300 to 600 ohm's. Like you I feel that at this level it should "just" make things louder (and push more voltage / current through them); I mean we're not talking about 33 ohm iems here being overramped to 600, but what I don't want to do is try it and fry it (as unlikely as hat is from my understanding) or use it, think it's fine, then a year down the road find i've overamped them and damaged them over time, so to speak.
post #4394 of 5632
@WryZed

ZxR has actually about 40 Ohms output impedance(it was measured on that one russian review). tongue.gif
But the rule says only, that it should be lower than 1/8 of your Headphones impedence(it doesn't have to match 1/8, the lower the better but neglible after 1/8).
And that means, that you would want ~30 Ohms output impedance with your 250 Ohms Headphones.
It depends also on the headphone, if a mismatch causes frequency response alteration:
http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=7&graphID[]=713&graphID[]=2621&scale=30

This shows the frequencies which are affected by output impedance, and as you can see, the bass gets attenuated in the "boomy" region, and this fits to your desciption after you went from M3 to ZxR. frown.gif
Edited by thuNDa - 6/4/16 at 6:22am
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post #4395 of 5632
Quote:
Originally Posted by thuNDa View Post

@WryZed

ZxR has actually about 40 Ohms output impedance(it was measured on that one russian review). tongue.gif
But the rule says only, that it should be lower than 1/8 of your Headphones impedence(it doesn't have to match 1/8, the lower the better but neglible after 1/8).
And that means, that you would want ~30 Ohms output impedance with your 250 Ohms Headphones.
It depends also on the headphone, if a mismatch causes frequency response alteration:
http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=7&graphID[]=713&graphID[]=2621&scale=30

This shows the frequencies which are affected by output impedance, and as you can see, the bass gets attenuated in the "boomy" region, and this fits to your desciption after you went from M3 to ZxR. frown.gif

I think I understand; so does that mean if I were to get an impedance increasing adapter, say 75 ohms, bringing my 250's up to 325 ohms, it should flatten the sonics and tighten things up somewhat? (Being that 40 x 8 = 320 ohms) or am I completely missing the point here?
post #4396 of 5632
Quote:
Originally Posted by WryZed View Post

I think I understand; so does that mean if I were to get an impedance increasing adapter, say 75 ohms, bringing my 250's up to 325 ohms, it should flatten the sonics and tighten things up somewhat? (Being that 40 x 8 = 320 ohms) or am I completely missing the point here?

no, the other way around.
You want an output impedance at max ~30 Ohms(1/8 rule: 250 / 8 = 31.25), to be sure that the frequency response(and therefore the bass) isn't affected by the output impedance in a negative way.
This is the most important factor ever, with headphones that are sensitive to output impedance.

So what can you do:
either live with it as it is, sent the ZxR back, replace the DT770's with the 600Ohm version, or buy an additional (clean) Amp with low output impedance, that you can connect to the headphone-out of the ZxR.

I absolutly wanted to keep the features of the SB-Z too, so my final setup is: SB-Z -> optical-out -> SMSL Sanskrit 6th -> Objective2 -> AKG K712 smile.gif

BTW, i recorded a comparision with my O/I-sensitive Sennheiser HD590's(120 Ohm):
SB-Z(~20 Ohm O/I) vs. ALC892(supposedly ~70 Ohm O/I):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oel2YDgOapM

Don't wanna hear the 50 Ohm HD598 there, should be major boom-bass inducing on high I/O...
Even the SB-Z has a way too high O/I for these phones:
http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=7&graphID[]=2851&graphID[]=2621&scale=30
Edited by thuNDa - 6/4/16 at 8:16am
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post #4397 of 5632
Quote:
Originally Posted by thuNDa View Post

no, the other way around.
You want an output impedance at max ~30 Ohms(1/8 rule: 250 / 8 = 31.25), to be sure that the frequency response(and therefore the bass) isn't affected by the output impedance in a negative way.
This is the most important factor ever, with headphones that are sensitive to output impedance.

So what can you do:
either live with it as it is, sent the ZxR back, replace the DT770's with the 600Ohm version, or buy an additional (clean) Amp with low output impedance, that you can connect to the headphone-out of the ZxR.

I absolutly wanted to keep the features of the SB-Z too, so my final setup is: SB-Z -> optical-out -> SMSL Sanskrit 6th -> Objective2 -> AKG K712 smile.gif

BTW, i recorded a comparision with my O/I-sensitive Sennheiser HD590's(120 Ohm):
SB-Z(~20 Ohm O/I) vs. ALC892(supposedly ~70 Ohm O/I):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oel2YDgOapM

Don't wanna hear the 50 Ohm HD598 there, should be major boom-bass inducing on high I/O...
Even the SB-Z has a way too high O/I for these phones:
http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=7&graphID[]=2851&graphID[]=2621&scale=30

I tried a similar thing, obviously far more budget compared to yourself mind, that involved the Z outputting to the M3 with the stereo output option ticked to allow audio processing; the problem I found there was that the sound stage shrank considerably, and where the virtual surround prior was so impressive, it lacked the depth. Granted that may have been the M3 causing that I suppose? Otherwise I presume you switch to raw SBZ for gaming?

Forgive me if I'm being an idiot but I don't quite understand the difference here though; If I were to purchase a 75 ohm adapter (such as something like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Etymotic-ER4P-to-ER4S-6-35-to-3-5mm-resistor-adaptor/281728711409?_trksid=p999999.c100623.m-1&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160323102634%26meid%3D777a482e999a4d6dae179376930e59e4%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D5%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D300453295797) then due to that upconverting my headphones to 325 ohms, and therefore 325 / 8 = 40.625, therefore matching the aforementioned ZxR output of 40ohms, doesn't that solve the problem? Or even if I were to get a 50 and 300 ohm converter, essentially bringing my headphones to 600 ohms, doesn't that meet the same criteria as actual 600 ohm headphones?
Edited by WryZed - 6/4/16 at 9:07am
post #4398 of 5632
Quote:
Originally Posted by WryZed View Post

I tried a similar thing, obviously far more budget compared to yourself mind, that involved the Z outputting to the M3 with the stereo output option ticked to allow audio processing; the problem I found there was that the sound stage shrank considerably, and where the virtual surround prior was so impressive, it lacked the depth. Granted that may have been the M3 causing that I suppose? Otherwise I presume you switch to raw SBZ for gaming?

Forgive me if I'm being an idiot but I don't quite understand the difference here though; If I were to purchase a 75 ohm (such as something like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Etymotic-ER4P-to-ER4S-6-35-to-3-5mm-resistor-adaptor/281728711409?_trksid=p999999.c100623.m-1&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160323102634%26meid%3D777a482e999a4d6dae179376930e59e4%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D5%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D300453295797) then due to that upconverting my headphones to 325 ohms, and therefore 325 / 8 = 40.625, doesn't that solve the problem? Or even if I were to get a 50 and 300 ohm converter, essentially bringing my headphones to 600 ohms, doesn't that meet the same criteria as actual 600 ohm headphones?

Before i was using the SMSL SD793 over optical out from my SB-Z, which didn't sound so different compared to my current setup TBH. rolleyes.gif
For gaming i have "Stereomix" checked while in headphone mode, and for music i use a shortcut in "SBZ-Switcher" to switch to SPDIF-out(which indeed sounds better that stereomix, even when u disable everything in the CPL).
So i guess it must have been the M3, because i don't have the desire to plug my headphones into the SB-Z ever again(must be more the money that i already spent on external DAC/Amp, than the quality itself which is very close on my I/O-Insensitive AKG's tongue.gif).

For the Impedance-adaptor: You wouldn't make the impedance of your headphones higher, but instead would increase the O/I of the ZxR even more. biggrin.gif
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post #4399 of 5632
Quote:
Originally Posted by thuNDa View Post

Before i was using the SMSL SD793 over optical out from my SB-Z, which didn't sound so different compared to my current setup TBH. rolleyes.gif
For gaming i have "Stereomix" checked while in headphone mode, and for music i use a shortcut in "SBZ-Switcher" to switch to SPDIF-out(which indeed sounds better that stereomix, even when u disable everything in the CPL).
So i guess it must have been the M3, because i don't have the desire to plug my headphones into the SB-Z ever again(must be more the money that i already spent on external DAC/Amp, than the quality itself which is very close on my I/O-Insensitive AKG's tongue.gif).

For the Impedance-adaptor: You wouldn't make the impedance of your headphones higher, but instead would increase the O/I of the ZxR even more. biggrin.gif


Riiiiight, my mistake; I had understood it wrong. Just looking over http://www.head-fi.org/t/601669/impedance-adapters-cables-explained-listed and may try my hand at making an impedance decreasing adaptor then if I can't find one for sale elsewhere.
post #4400 of 5632
Quote:
Originally Posted by WryZed View Post

Riiiiight, my mistake; I had understood it wrong. Just looking over http://www.head-fi.org/t/601669/impedance-adapters-cables-explained-listed and may try my hand at making an impedance decreasing adaptor then if I can't find one for sale elsewhere.

"impedance decreasing adaptor" won't work.
You had to clip some resistors on the ZxR(to simplify it).

There's the O2 on massdrop atm, which wouldn't alter what comes out of the ZxR, but would give you an O/I of 0.5 Ohm.
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-o2-amplifier
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