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[Official] Creative Sound Blaster Z, Zx & ZxR Series Club - Page 450

post #4491 of 5642
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Eh, I do both, they serve different purposes. A Receiver or Pre is not capable of replacing a sound card because they simply can not feature-match them in the non-HT space. Depends on what you plan to do... Watching movies is a no brainier, communication with other humans less so.

The good Receiver market is stupid expensive too... People used to computer as a hobby, saying "I'll spend $1000 this year!"... Audio isn't cars, but it's most of the way there. I'd honestly suggest a pre with amps because no receiver has any guts in it, but that's even worse. If you want to spend some real money, you can always go with a Pre, some amps, and some DIY speakers, especially the sub. Remember; good 2.1 is infinitely better than crappy 7.1, and you can always build up if you plan ahead. tongue.gif

Note as well that MOST receivers also make use of a 1/4th TRS for headphones. They are fully capable of acting as a DAC for your headphones. Just saying, it can help in the short term.
I barely use my headphones though they are wireless surround sound and connected via optical cable to my onboard sound instead of my sound card. They are for the few occasions that I do connect with other humans online (mostly for tech support and support with my table top gaming). My headset is connected to my PC via bluetooth for the mic.....
No sound card produces true 7.1 but HDMI does of which there are no sound cards that I know of that have HDMI input and output.

I have seen some of the high end receivers for as low as $300 every so often, one even had a 125 watts per channel output which is higher than what my z906 speakers can handle (100 watts per channel) and I can only have that up at most maybe 40% without it being heard clear to the other side of the house (bass is even lower). I have checked the specs of some of these receivers and they more than fit the bill in outperforming my Zx card.
I would want 7.1 primarily for movies and games and partially for my music. Well to be honest when I am doing other things in my room the 5.1 surround sound really sounds great. When I am working around my house it does not matter. With 7.1 surround movies and music will be that much better than they are now.
I really can't work with 2.1 anymore, in fact I have not had that in more than 10 years. When a game has DTS or Dolby Digital built in 2.1 sounds so limited. Consequently I have some music that is also encoded for surround.

Since like I said I do not use my headset for gaming or listening to music.
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post #4492 of 5642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmaxneo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Eh, I do both, they serve different purposes. A Receiver or Pre is not capable of replacing a sound card because they simply can not feature-match them in the non-HT space. Depends on what you plan to do... Watching movies is a no brainier, communication with other humans less so.

The good Receiver market is stupid expensive too... People used to computer as a hobby, saying "I'll spend $1000 this year!"... Audio isn't cars, but it's most of the way there. I'd honestly suggest a pre with amps because no receiver has any guts in it, but that's even worse. If you want to spend some real money, you can always go with a Pre, some amps, and some DIY speakers, especially the sub. Remember; good 2.1 is infinitely better than crappy 7.1, and you can always build up if you plan ahead. tongue.gif

Note as well that MOST receivers also make use of a 1/4th TRS for headphones. They are fully capable of acting as a DAC for your headphones. Just saying, it can help in the short term.
I barely use my headphones though they are wireless surround sound and connected via optical cable to my onboard sound instead of my sound card. They are for the few occasions that I do connect with other humans online (mostly for tech support and support with my table top gaming). My headset is connected to my PC via bluetooth for the mic.....
No sound card produces true 7.1 but HDMI does of which there are no sound cards that I know of that have HDMI input and output.

I have seen some of the high end receivers for as low as $300 every so often, one even had a 125 watts per channel output which is higher than what my z906 speakers can handle (100 watts per channel) and I can only have that up at most maybe 40% without it being heard clear to the other side of the house (bass is even lower). I have checked the specs of some of these receivers and they more than fit the bill in outperforming my Zx card.
I would want 7.1 primarily for movies and games and partially for my music. Well to be honest when I am doing other things in my room the 5.1 surround sound really sounds great. When I am working around my house it does not matter. With 7.1 surround movies and music will be that much better than they are now.
I really can't work with 2.1 anymore, in fact I have not had that in more than 10 years. When a game has DTS or Dolby Digital built in 2.1 sounds so limited. Consequently I have some music that is also encoded for surround.

Since like I said I do not use my headset for gaming or listening to music.

Receivers are not that simple. DTS and Dolby are both lossy standards; they sound like crap. They are designed to fit 6 channels in a bandwidth that supports two.

$300 is not high-end (you need to add another zero). $300 is budget new, mid-range used. That doesn't make it bad, but if someone is promising top-of-the-line for $300, they are lying to you.

125w is 2-channel only, guarantee it. Until they make more Class-D amp receivers, you are not packing 1000w into one. I suggest you do a lot more research, and be sure to read their manuals when available online carefully. Make sure to pay attention to their wattage @ ohm rating, per channel count, and know what ohm rating your speakers are. 125w@2c/4ohm does you nothing if you use 8c/8ohm; you'll be lucky to get 20wpc.

Click View-All on my Forge rig, look at audio. I am not new to this and what I'm telling you is very important.


As an add on point to doing research, your speakers are not 100w.
Quote:
• Total watts (RMS): 500 watts
- Subwoofer: 165 watts (6 ohms, at 52 Hz, at 10% THD)
- Satellites: 335 watts RMS (5 x 67 watts per channel {4 ohms at 3.85kHz, at 10% THD})
http://www.logitech.com/assets/36226/z906620-002920006ug403.pdf Page 13

This is actually in your favor, because at 10% THD maxed (which is bad), you wont want to max them, so a 7x40wpc receiver with a sub pre-out is just fine. Just keep in mind that basically every brand out there lies to make their wattage numbers look good. Even if they do advertise 8 simultaneous channel wattage, proper reviews show they are not exactly accurate numbers.
Edited by KyadCK - 7/18/16 at 11:08pm
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post #4493 of 5642
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

A Receiver or Pre is not capable of replacing a sound card because they simply can not feature-match them in the non-HT space.

Going to be using window's APO API to add my own DSP effects to each mixing stage, effectively providing more features than any consumer sound card. Also will be looking at offloading certain DSP tasks to AMD's DSPs where available, only concern is hardware and process latency which I don't think either will be an issue.

Also got a HDMI 7.1 audio extractor on order now, only thing left is a DAC for the headphones. For mic I may just get a USB one like most youtubers use unless I find a cheap (and high spec) XLR ADC.
Edited by Paul17041993 - 7/19/16 at 3:26pm
   
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post #4494 of 5642
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Receivers are not that simple. DTS and Dolby are both lossy standards; they sound like crap. They are designed to fit 6 channels in a bandwidth that supports two.

$300 is not high-end (you need to add another zero). $300 is budget new, mid-range used. That doesn't make it bad, but if someone is promising top-of-the-line for $300, they are lying to you.

125w is 2-channel only, guarantee it. Until they make more Class-D amp receivers, you are not packing 1000w into one. I suggest you do a lot more research, and be sure to read their manuals when available online carefully. Make sure to pay attention to their wattage @ ohm rating, per channel count, and know what ohm rating your speakers are. 125w@2c/4ohm does you nothing if you use 8c/8ohm; you'll be lucky to get 20wpc.

Click View-All on my Forge rig, look at audio. I am not new to this and what I'm telling you is very important.


As an add on point to doing research, your speakers are not 100w.
http://www.logitech.com/assets/36226/z906620-002920006ug403.pdf Page 13

This is actually in your favor, because at 10% THD maxed (which is bad), you wont want to max them, so a 7x40wpc receiver with a sub pre-out is just fine. Just keep in mind that basically every brand out there lies to make their wattage numbers look good. Even if they do advertise 8 simultaneous channel wattage, proper reviews show they are not exactly accurate numbers.
Hmm I don't know about those numbers but these speakers are pretty loud. I would have to say they are in fact louder and more clear than other systems (mostly tower speakers) I have had rated at 100 watts per channel.. Most of my life I have had systems with at least 100 watts per channel and this system is more powerful than they were by a pretty good margin.
Either way I have heard some pretty good 7.1 sound systems in my time and they were not with the super high end systems that cost $3000 just for the receiver.

I looked at your system and there is not much info in there just names of the audio equipment. Not sure what each piece does but I really do not have the time to look it up.
I just want to seriously upgrade to a 7.1 surround system without breaking the bank. So do you have any suggestions in that area? It does not have to be perfect sound like you seem to be stressing. But I would like to go 7.1 or better with the same quality I have now. What I have and use works awesomely for me and my system can kick enough to add some great audio immersion if I want it to.
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post #4495 of 5642
100W per channel (besides the sub) is about as loud as you can get and with large drivers, any louder tends to fall into PA and large party equipment that also tends to lack raw quality. Also most of the time this power rating is barely reached except for rare spikes of power in music, of which are handled by the capacitors in the amp's power delivery.

I use microlab's H-500 II as my main speakers, which are RMS rated 270W; 32W per 2-way bookshelf speaker and 110W for the 8" sub, which is powerful enough to hurt my ears in the low-mids and up long before it starts to exhibit distortion. 110W is also quite beefy for a sub, but if you wanted something really rich in 60Hz and below you'll want something stronger and larger (minimum 10").

So basically as @KyadCK recommended, 7*40W would be more than enough unless you wanted to use large driver (> 6") speakers, if the speakers are seperate from the reciver you should try to match the OHM ratings as well as the W as the power comes out at different values depending on the OHM's (Ohm's law; V = I*R, or P = V^2 / R in this case).

Subs wise, most are self-powered and you just plug it in with a single RCA cable from the receiver, try to go as large and powerful as your budget allows, many good ones are 12" and around 200W, but a 100W 8" will probably fit your needs.
   
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post #4496 of 5642
Okay, I actually have time to deal with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul17041993 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

A Receiver or Pre is not capable of replacing a sound card because they simply can not feature-match them in the non-HT space.

Going to be using window's APO API to add my own DSP effects to each mixing stage, effectively providing more features than any consumer sound card. Also will be looking at offloading certain DSP tasks to AMD's DSPs where available, only concern is hardware and process latency which I don't think either will be an issue.

Also got a HDMI 7.1 audio extractor on order now, only thing left is a DAC for the headphones. For mic I may just get a USB one like most youtubers use unless I find a cheap (and high spec) XLR ADC.

More specifically I meant the Mic in as a rather major feature, yes. tongue.gif

Also please do not buy a AT2020 USB for example. The absolute lack of any management features is murder to everyone but you. Be courteous!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmaxneo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Receivers are not that simple. DTS and Dolby are both lossy standards; they sound like crap. They are designed to fit 6 channels in a bandwidth that supports two.

$300 is not high-end (you need to add another zero). $300 is budget new, mid-range used. That doesn't make it bad, but if someone is promising top-of-the-line for $300, they are lying to you.

125w is 2-channel only, guarantee it. Until they make more Class-D amp receivers, you are not packing 1000w into one. I suggest you do a lot more research, and be sure to read their manuals when available online carefully. Make sure to pay attention to their wattage @ ohm rating, per channel count, and know what ohm rating your speakers are. 125w@2c/4ohm does you nothing if you use 8c/8ohm; you'll be lucky to get 20wpc.

Click View-All on my Forge rig, look at audio. I am not new to this and what I'm telling you is very important.


As an add on point to doing research, your speakers are not 100w.
http://www.logitech.com/assets/36226/z906620-002920006ug403.pdf Page 13

This is actually in your favor, because at 10% THD maxed (which is bad), you wont want to max them, so a 7x40wpc receiver with a sub pre-out is just fine. Just keep in mind that basically every brand out there lies to make their wattage numbers look good. Even if they do advertise 8 simultaneous channel wattage, proper reviews show they are not exactly accurate numbers.
Hmm I don't know about those numbers but these speakers are pretty loud. I would have to say they are in fact louder and more clear than other systems (mostly tower speakers) I have had rated at 100 watts per channel.. Most of my life I have had systems with at least 100 watts per channel and this system is more powerful than they were by a pretty good margin.
Either way I have heard some pretty good 7.1 sound systems in my time and they were not with the super high end systems that cost $3000 just for the receiver.

I looked at your system and there is not much info in there just names of the audio equipment. Not sure what each piece does but I really do not have the time to look it up.
I just want to seriously upgrade to a 7.1 surround system without breaking the bank. So do you have any suggestions in that area? It does not have to be perfect sound like you seem to be stressing. But I would like to go 7.1 or better with the same quality I have now. What I have and use works awesomely for me and my system can kick enough to add some great audio immersion if I want it to.

Like there is a maximum power rating, there is also an efficiency rating. If your 100w speakers had low efficiency, like 80dB @1w/1m, then yes, the Logitechs are probably louder. My 200SEs, the smallest, weakest, and least efficient I own, have an efficiency of 93dB @1w/1m, 100w RMS, weigh 30lbs each, and a THD of under 0.1% due to my amp not having to work hard to max them. They are made for a different purpose and are built differently. *shrug*

I'm not saying they can't sound good. They probably sound amazing. But someone telling you $300 is high-end is trying to BS you. A GTX 1060 will still be a good GPU, great for 1080p, but if someone called it high-end would you believe them? Know what you're getting, that's all I ask.

Setup explanation, TL;DR version:
Denon DN500AV: Pre-amp. It's a receiver without the amplifier. Doing this lets me put in DSPs, mixers, my own amps, and so on as it outputs Balanced XLR instead of speaker wire.
iNukes: Amplifiers. Not super great ones, but great budget ones.
Speakers: They're speakers. Most of them are old-skool.

Sugestions:
Recivers: Stick to known brands. There are some not-so-well known ones that are good, but Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, Kenwood, Denon/Marantz, Sony. They are sold in bulk, you can find reviews and impressions all over the web. OCN is not a good place for this advice in my experience, try AVSForum or maybe AudioKarma. They're like us, but for audio.
Speakers: I was going to say use your Logitechs, but absolutely do not do that. Finding a receiver that can handle 4ohm speakers is difficult, and you do not want to put 4ohm speakers on a 6/8ohm only receiver unless you like magic smoke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul17041993 View Post

100W per channel (besides the sub) is about as loud as you can get and with large drivers, any louder tends to fall into PA and large party equipment that also tends to lack raw quality. Also most of the time this power rating is barely reached except for rare spikes of power in music, of which are handled by the capacitors in the amp's power delivery.

I use microlab's H-500 II as my main speakers, which are RMS rated 270W; 32W per 2-way bookshelf speaker and 110W for the 8" sub, which is powerful enough to hurt my ears in the low-mids and up long before it starts to exhibit distortion. 110W is also quite beefy for a sub, but if you wanted something really rich in 60Hz and below you'll want something stronger and larger (minimum 10").

So basically as @KyadCK recommended, 7*40W would be more than enough unless you wanted to use large driver (> 6") speakers, if the speakers are seperate from the reciver you should try to match the OHM ratings as well as the W as the power comes out at different values depending on the OHM's (Ohm's law; V = I*R, or P = V^2 / R in this case).

Subs wise, most are self-powered and you just plug it in with a single RCA cable from the receiver, try to go as large and powerful as your budget allows, many good ones are 12" and around 200W, but a 100W 8" will probably fit your needs.
Off topic rant (Click to show)
100w is a fair limit on bookshelf speakers. Floor-standing, and especially DIY, 100w is nothing. If you are hurting yourself with just 32w, I dunno what to tell you. Computer speakers are a different breed from HT, there is no real point comparing them as if it means anything. Same applies to all wattage math thus quoted, so I'm just going to go with "Our standards are different and since mine wont apply to Madmaxneo I'll leave it at that".

Ohms law is useless with audio. I wish it were that simple, but perfect example. Remember what i said about wattage numbers? They were able to get 40w/7c out of this thing, but they don't tell you that. Likewise, 4ohm does not provide double the power of 8-ohm, because #Logic. Same with my iNukes. One of my 1000s can do 2x500w @2ohm, 2x300w @4ohm, and 1000w bridged at 4ohm. Brain broken yet? Because speakers are even worse. That ohm rating is not universal. Just take a look at that sucker's curve on page one. They're all like this.

In reality, ignore math, just use the numbers provided, it's the only way you won't want to shoot yourself. Most receivers are capable of supporting 6ohm or 8ohm rated speakers. Realistically, you'll want speakers that can handle more power than your receiver can provide to avoid accidental damage, and never turn your receiver to max for extended periods; they rely on passive cooling.

And yes, subs mostly plug into the wall and have their own amplifier built in. If the receiver has a sub pre-out (and almost all do), then don't worry about it. Just get something nice and strong. 12" is the sweet spot for good budget it seems.
Edited by KyadCK - 7/23/16 at 4:04pm
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post #4497 of 5642
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post


Also please do not buy a AT2020 USB for example. The absolute lack of any management features is murder to everyone but you.

Probably because said model is from a brand that tends to focus on studio equipment, of which doesn't involve any "gaming" features besides post-process enhancements and a simple EQ for live (if actually needed). You're also supposed to use soundproofing etc for best quality anyway.

That being said, depending on how far I get with the windows APO API I'll possibly implement some noise cancelling and beam-forming (stereo mic configs) algorithms, as well as the standard EQ, mixing and pass-through options. All going to be open-source too as this is something we should all be able to enjoy.

And yea, 100W on floor-stand and other large speakers is fairly low, depending on your preference in bass or the presence of a sub. Lower frequencies need a lot more power than low-mids and up, 125Hz is about the point where it can be loud on small, low power drivers, but lower than 100Hz needs much larger (6" bare minimum) and powerful drivers to really be adequately audible.
   
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post #4498 of 5642
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post


Sugestions:
Recivers: Stick to known brands. There are some not-so-well known ones that are good, but Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, Kenwood, Denon/Marantz, Sony. They are sold in bulk, you can find reviews and impressions all over the web. OCN is not a good place for this advice in my experience, try AVSForum or maybe AudioKarma. They're like us, but for audio.
Speakers: I was going to say use your Logitechs, but absolutely do not do that. Finding a receiver that can handle 4ohm speakers is difficult, and you do not want to put 4ohm speakers on a 6/8ohm only receiver unless you like magic smoke. Off topic rant (Click to show)
100w is a fair limit on bookshelf speakers. Floor-standing, and especially DIY, 100w is nothing. If you are hurting yourself with just 32w, I dunno what to tell you. Computer speakers are a different breed from HT, there is no real point comparing them as if it means anything. Same applies to all wattage math thus quoted, so I'm just going to go with "Our standards are different and since mine wont apply to Madmaxneo I'll leave it at that".

Ohms law is useless with audio. I wish it were that simple, but perfect example. Remember what i said about wattage numbers? They were able to get 40w/7c out of this thing, but they don't tell you that. Likewise, 4ohm does not provide double the power of 8-ohm, because #Logic. Same with my iNukes. One of my 1000s can do 2x500w @2ohm, 2x300w @4ohm, and 1000w bridged at 4ohm. Brain broken yet? Because speakers are even worse. That ohm rating is not universal. Just take a look at that sucker's curve on page one. They're all like this.

In reality, ignore math, just use the numbers provided, it's the only way you won't want to shoot yourself. Most receivers are capable of supporting 6ohm or 8ohm rated speakers. Realistically, you'll want speakers that can handle more power than your receiver can provide to avoid accidental damage, and never turn your receiver to max for extended periods; they rely on passive cooling.

And yes, subs mostly plug into the wall and have their own amplifier built in. If the receiver has a sub pre-out (and almost all do), then don't worry about it. Just get something nice and strong. 12" is the sweet spot for good budget it seems.
The "higher' end receivers I find every so often for about $300 are Onkyo and Yamaha. In my younger days I used to buy nothing but Pioneer because the Onkyo and Yamaha were to expensive at around $1200 a piece (15 years ago). I guess by higher end I am speaking just about the name brand,
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post #4499 of 5642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmaxneo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post


Sugestions:
Recivers: Stick to known brands. There are some not-so-well known ones that are good, but Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, Kenwood, Denon/Marantz, Sony. They are sold in bulk, you can find reviews and impressions all over the web. OCN is not a good place for this advice in my experience, try AVSForum or maybe AudioKarma. They're like us, but for audio.
Speakers: I was going to say use your Logitechs, but absolutely do not do that. Finding a receiver that can handle 4ohm speakers is difficult, and you do not want to put 4ohm speakers on a 6/8ohm only receiver unless you like magic smoke. Off topic rant (Click to show)
100w is a fair limit on bookshelf speakers. Floor-standing, and especially DIY, 100w is nothing. If you are hurting yourself with just 32w, I dunno what to tell you. Computer speakers are a different breed from HT, there is no real point comparing them as if it means anything. Same applies to all wattage math thus quoted, so I'm just going to go with "Our standards are different and since mine wont apply to Madmaxneo I'll leave it at that".

Ohms law is useless with audio. I wish it were that simple, but perfect example. Remember what i said about wattage numbers? They were able to get 40w/7c out of this thing, but they don't tell you that. Likewise, 4ohm does not provide double the power of 8-ohm, because #Logic. Same with my iNukes. One of my 1000s can do 2x500w @2ohm, 2x300w @4ohm, and 1000w bridged at 4ohm. Brain broken yet? Because speakers are even worse. That ohm rating is not universal. Just take a look at that sucker's curve on page one. They're all like this.

In reality, ignore math, just use the numbers provided, it's the only way you won't want to shoot yourself. Most receivers are capable of supporting 6ohm or 8ohm rated speakers. Realistically, you'll want speakers that can handle more power than your receiver can provide to avoid accidental damage, and never turn your receiver to max for extended periods; they rely on passive cooling.

And yes, subs mostly plug into the wall and have their own amplifier built in. If the receiver has a sub pre-out (and almost all do), then don't worry about it. Just get something nice and strong. 12" is the sweet spot for good budget it seems.
The "higher' end receivers I find every so often for about $300 are Onkyo and Yamaha. In my younger days I used to buy nothing but Pioneer because the Onkyo and Yamaha were to expensive at around $1200 a piece (15 years ago). I guess by higher end I am speaking just about the name brand,

The absolute cheapest model from Yamaha is $300, and it's 5.1. If you want 7.1 it will cost you $550.

Pioneer, $280 and $600.
Denon, $280 and $480
Marantz, $500 and $700
Sony $250 and $300.
Onkyo, $400 and $500

And I dunno how I feel about that Sony; things are usually cheaper for a reason. And none of these include speakers.

I dunno, if you like your Logitechs, I really would recommend saving up about $1100 or so and going for a nice system. Even then, I was talking to a friend who has audio gear far beyond my own and he recommended these B642-AIRs for budget speakers on the 7 channels (He owns a pair, says they're alright for a medium sized room) which are "only" $25 a speaker. With $600 for a rec that's $800, leaving $300 for wire ($20) and a good subwoofer because those Daytons have no real bass.

In theory, the setup should last over 10 years provided no abuse, it shouldn't be that big an investment for people who are already into computers anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul17041993 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post


Also please do not buy a AT2020 USB for example. The absolute lack of any management features is murder to everyone but you.

Probably because said model is from a brand that tends to focus on studio equipment, of which doesn't involve any "gaming" features besides post-process enhancements and a simple EQ for live (if actually needed). You're also supposed to use soundproofing etc for best quality anyway.

That being said, depending on how far I get with the windows APO API I'll possibly implement some noise cancelling and beam-forming (stereo mic configs) algorithms, as well as the standard EQ, mixing and pass-through options. All going to be open-source too as this is something we should all be able to enjoy.

And yea, 100W on floor-stand and other large speakers is fairly low, depending on your preference in bass or the presence of a sub. Lower frequencies need a lot more power than low-mids and up, 125Hz is about the point where it can be loud on small, low power drivers, but lower than 100Hz needs much larger (6" bare minimum) and powerful drivers to really be adequately audible.

That doesn't make them gaming features, that makes them communication features. It lacks them, and so do almost every USB mic. I doubt I'll be on the receiving end of your mic, but I wanted to protect everyone else's ears in advance.

In my experience Discord, Mumble, Teamspeak, and the various non-VOIP noise canceling software's available on the web are terrible. If you manage to make a good software-based noise canceler that can match what your SBZ can do, please share it. I know some people that I do talk to that need it badly. tongue.gif

And I chuckle because 6" is actually smaller than my mids (6.5") and they only go down to 200hz or 500hz depending on which speaker in the stack. A perfect example of large HT speaker that can chug power (500w @8Ohm) and sound amazing in my opinion (and much of the internet's) is the Fusion-12, but they are over $300 per speaker and you still have to build it yourself. Still, this is why I say there is a huge difference between HT and Comp speakers, they're simply not comparable.
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post #4500 of 5642
Does the audio sound fine when double amping the Z's headphone out using an external amp (like the O2) with a low impedance headphone (i.e., 25-ohms Denon AH-D7000)?

Thx!
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