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LightBoost, G-SYNC, Turbo240: 120Hz Strobe Backlight LCDs / No Motion Blur! - Page 36

post #351 of 2929
120+ Hz 1440p IPS panels, Fluid-Motion TN panels, TVs with actually-functional local dimming and ambient lighting, OLED cellphone screens...

And yet... we will probably never get it all in a single affordable pre-enabled package.



Damn you stagnant monitor manufacturers and the consumers who simply don't care enough to demand more!
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post #352 of 2929
Quote:
Originally Posted by 666lbs View Post

Not that I don't believe you, but I'm a sucker for monitor tech so if you have a comparison test between one of these monitors and a CRT and could post the link for me I'd eat it up.

Also, when they test an LCD and hypothetically come up with 2-3ms of input latency (for the sake of argument) that's not saying the monitor has 2-3ms of input latency. That's in relation to the CRT it's being tested against. Again, since we're just talking about the minutiae of monitor business now.

http://pcmonitors.info/reviews/benq-xl2411t

The Asus QE uses the same panel as the 11T and both are considered the "best" LCD's out there if you are concerned about motion blur, ghosting and using Lightboost.
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post #353 of 2929
Quote:
Originally Posted by CallsignVega View Post

http://pcmonitors.info/reviews/benq-xl2411t

The Asus QE uses the same panel as the 11T and both are considered the "best" LCD's out there if you are concerned about motion blur, ghosting and using Lightboost.

Arrrgh they should have posted video of their test. It's inordinately hard to take someone's word for it when it comes to monitors, where there is so much borderline blatant lying to begin with. Also have to say that 2-3ms is not exactly the best in the industry (but it is certainly better than the vast majority). Dell's 2312hm has an input latency of 0.6ms when compared to a CRT.

source: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2312hm.htm
post #354 of 2929
I personally consider the TFTCentral input lag results to be complete garbage. They seem to be a mish-mash of various methods.

0.6ms is the signal latency. This is simply the time taken to begin switching the pixel state. IPS displays tend to have a very low value, most likely due to technical reasons.

The average input lag for the Dell u2312hm you mention is 9.3ms - http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2011/review-dell-u2312hm-part13.html#Responsiveness
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post #355 of 2929
Quote:
Originally Posted by 666lbs View Post

Arrrgh they should have posted video of their test. It's inordinately hard to take someone's word for it when it comes to monitors, where there is so much borderline blatant lying to begin with. Also have to say that 2-3ms is not exactly the best in the industry (but it is certainly better than the vast majority). Dell's 2312hm has an input latency of 0.6ms when compared to a CRT.

source: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2312hm.htm

Given the time consuming nature of thoroughly reviewing a monitor and the fact nobody pays us reviewers to do so, I don't really see how a video would be practical or for most users useful. We don't document other areas of our methodology in such a way either and that isn't something people generally expect. You've just got to take our word for it or test this sort of thing for yourself. When it comes to input lag testing we have recently revised our protocol to include a very specific set of baseline measurements. This is described in more detail in the U2713H review. It is also important to appreciate the inherent inaccuracies of measuring input lag, unless you are using an oscilloscope and photodiode and have the appropriate know-how.

For all intents and purposes nobody who is human will be bothered by the input lag of the XL2411T or VG248QE because it is imperceptibly low. And comparing a 60Hz monitor to a 144Hz one is fruitless. There is more to how responsive a monitor feels than input lag - and refresh rate happens to be a very important factor here. Any 60Hz monitor with '0 input lag' simply does not feel as responsive as these 144Hz monitors because it displays less than half as much information every second and doesn't respond to mouse movement (input polling) as frequently. It's easy for somebody with 'hands on experience' to appreciate this and take it for granted. I know it's also easy to theorise and be led down the wrong path with these things smile.gif.
Edited by PCM2 - 2/10/13 at 9:29am
post #356 of 2929
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCM2 View Post

Given the time consuming nature of thoroughly reviewing a monitor and the fact nobody pays us reviewers to do so, I don't really see how a video would be practical or for most users useful. We don't document other areas of our methodology in such a way either and that isn't something people generally expect. You've just got to take our word for it or test this sort of thing for yourself. When it comes to input lag testing we have recently revised our protocol to include a very specific set of baseline measurements. This is described in more detail in the U2713H review. It is also important to appreciate the inherent inaccuracies of measuring input lag, unless you are using an oscilloscope and photodiode and have the appropriate know-how.

For all intents and purposes nobody who is human will be bothered by the input lag of the XL2411T or VG248QE because it is imperceptibly low. And comparing a 60Hz monitor to a 144Hz one is fruitless. There is more to how responsive a monitor feels than input lag - and refresh rate happens to be a very important factor here. Any 60Hz monitor with '0 input lag' simply does not feel as responsive as these 144Hz monitors because it displays less than half as much information every second and doesn't respond to mouse movement (input polling) as frequently. It's easy for somebody with 'hands on experience' to appreciate this and take it for granted. I know it's also easy to theorise and be led down the wrong path with these things smile.gif.

I totally agree. People talking about the differences of input lag sub 5ms is meaningless.
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post #357 of 2929
@666lbs Seriously, no there isn't a picture compared to a CRT that I can find. Take our word or leave the subject.
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post #358 of 2929
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCM2 View Post

Given the time consuming nature of thoroughly reviewing a monitor and the fact nobody pays us reviewers to do so, I don't really see how a video would be practical or for most users useful. We don't document other areas of our methodology in such a way either and that isn't something people generally expect. You've just got to take our word for it or test this sort of thing for yourself. When it comes to input lag testing we have recently revised our protocol to include a very specific set of baseline measurements. This is described in more detail in the U2713H review. It is also important to appreciate the inherent inaccuracies of measuring input lag, unless you are using an oscilloscope and photodiode and have the appropriate know-how.

For all intents and purposes nobody who is human will be bothered by the input lag of the XL2411T or VG248QE because it is imperceptibly low. And comparing a 60Hz monitor to a 144Hz one is fruitless. There is more to how responsive a monitor feels than input lag - and refresh rate happens to be a very important factor here. Any 60Hz monitor with '0 input lag' simply does not feel as responsive as these 144Hz monitors because it displays less than half as much information every second and doesn't respond to mouse movement (input polling) as frequently. It's easy for somebody with 'hands on experience' to appreciate this and take it for granted. I know it's also easy to theorise and be led down the wrong path with these things smile.gif.

Anyone who is responsibly contributing "definitive" measurements on input latency is in fact using an oscilloscope and photosensor. If they aren't, they're contributing nothing of value.

I'm with you in theory (regarding the 144hz monitor) but 0.6ms measured input latency @ 60hz and 2-3ms @144hz are both well below the threshold of human perception, so to say that the 144hz "feels" more responsive isn't exactly accurate. But from a technical perspective I see what you are saying.
post #359 of 2929
This is why I'm not a fan of people who come up with stuff akin to "the human eye sees at about 30 frames, anything more is useless overkill" (and all the rest of it) and won't shut up until you have bought scientific evidence in absolute totality to prove otherwise.. when if you actually took the time to simply TRY anything 144Hz, and try anything 60Hz, you would learn that it brings a whole new meaning to the term "feels" more responsive. Theorycrafting in terms of gaming peripheral responsiveness has and always will be useless. Good luck in your fruitless search smile.gif




On a related note to the problem at hand, the millions of people who try 120Hz's or above pretty much unanimously agree that it squarely kicks 60Hz's behind; yet you will always find people who still ask for scientific proof.
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post #360 of 2929
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamzatm View Post

This is why I'm not a fan of people who come up with stuff akin to "the human eye sees at about 30 frames, anything more is useless overkill" (and all the rest of it) and won't shut up until you have bought scientific evidence in absolute totality to prove otherwise.. when if you actually took the time to simply TRY anything 144Hz, and try anything 60Hz, you would learn that it brings a whole new meaning to the term "feels" more responsive. Theorycrafting in terms of gaming peripheral responsiveness has and always will be useless. Good luck in your fruitless search smile.gif

I own both a 60hz Dell 2312hm and a 120hz VG236H, and I wasn't comparing 120hz or 144hz to 60hz in an argument about how many fps your eyes can see. We were talking about measuring input latency of 60hz vs. 144hz with an oscilloscope so maybe you should calm down, since you don't seem to understand anything that either of us said in the last several posts (buy us I mean PCM2 by the way).

@PCM2, I'm still curious if you measure 0.6ms input latency with an oscilloscope on one monitor and 2-3ms on another how their respective hz affect these measurements (because of the nature of how you are measuring). The final numbers (0.6 and 2 or 3 respectively) should ultimately represent the interpretation of the output by an eye or lens or what have you, and ultimately decide which is hypothetically more "responsive".
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamzatm View Post

On a related note to the problem at hand, the millions of people who buy 120Hz's or above pretty much unanimously agree that it squarely kicks 60Hz's behind; yet you will always find people who still ask for scientific proof.

FTFY
Edited by 666lbs - 2/10/13 at 1:09pm
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