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Thinking of going to an FX6300 - Page 10

post #91 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

He's not saying anything of the sort, nor do I see how one could even interpret his statement that way.
He is simply reiterating that the OP wants to OC, so may favor an unlocked setup more than a locked one, even if the latter did have similar, or lesser, performance.
Which is exactly what MrFred just said.
One person mentioned an i3 as a possible alternative, and while an i3, taken by itself, is overall much inferior in performance to an equally priced Vishera, there are other factors to consider.
Also, I'm not seeing much evidence of anyone blinded by fanatacism, except maybe m0bius, who attempts to counter easily verifiable facts with outdated opinion and flawed conventional wisdom.
Many of the Intel users here own AMD systems as well, and most are more than willing to acknowledge AMD's legitamate strengths. I personally own multiple Phenom IIs and an FX-8150 (with no regrets). You'll never catch me saying that Vishera FXes aren't competitive in many scenarios.
Call me out on any specific point I've made, and I will provide independent verification of it.
We have little inkling of how Steamroller will compare to current chips, and Ivy parts compare well with Vishera. LGA-1155 being "dead" is only true in the sense than no new architectures will be released on it, which is immaterial. In the end, AM3+ may or may not have decisively better CPUs than LGA-1155.
As for why people would advocate it over an AM3+ FX-6300 setup, one only needs to look at overclocked power consumption figures.
Power consumption directly determines the cooling and VRM quality you need. Most LGA-1155 parts sip power, especially anywhere near stock. This means you do not need big expensive VRMs, nor large coolers. The same cannot be said for Vishera, which while certainly an improvement over Bulldozer, still guzzles power at significant OCs, and this means that boards and cooling need to be more expensive if you want them to last.
Back in the Phenom II vs. LGA-1366/1156 days, power consumption was a lot closer, and suitable Intel boards did tend to be more expensive (except in the case of i3s). This is no longer the case, unless one seriously sacrifices relative quality on the AM3+ boards, or insists on piles of largely unnecessary features on the 1155 boards.
Moving to a new socket when you upgrade is also of little consequence if you are only spending 50-80 dollars on a board.

Except the 8350 visheras are already matching/beating current Ivy counterparts in benchmarks while losing in others. The fact that in multi threaded performance it matches and even beats the 3570K priced around the same is my point. Now take into account that AMD is addressing the main failures of the bulldozer/vishera architecture and fixing them so the raw integer performance will not suffer as much anymore. They are fixing the architecture as already publicly stated by AMD.

To sum up if a 8350 can match/beat the 3570K in a good amount of tests, and steamroller will be at least 15% faster (that's a very conservative number) some are estimating around 25-30%, than by simple deduction, you can guess which is the better upgrade path.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6201/amd-details-its-3rd-gen-steamroller-architecture
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post #92 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post

That's an expensive motherboard. For the same price you could get a (locked) i5-3470 + cheap B75m motherboard for even better gaming performance & no crossfire worries. Also, if near a microcenter you can get an i5-3570k w/z77 for about the same price.
Also, it's probably worth it to go up to 8gb of RAM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post

In my opinion you cannot divorce CPU & Motherboard cost - you must consider them together. While I'm sure that Gigabyte 990 is a great board, I never recommend an fx-6300 with anything other than a sub-$100 motherboard. A more expensive motherboard increases the total price point, so you might as well go for an i5.
That said, the fx-6300 is a good processor, so choosing one is never going to be a disaster. Just not great price/performance when paired with an expensive mobo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post

If you're sure you want to overclock, then you must go AMD on your budget. Just be aware that in terms of CPU performance in virtually all games you overclock an fx-6300 in an attempt to MATCH a locked i5's performance, not to surpass it.
That is to say, if you overclock in order to achieve better gaming performance then at your budget there is no point; just get a locked i5. If you overclock because it's cool and just also happen to game (gaming performance NOT being your highest priority), then of course you stick with the fx-6300.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post

Uh... no I don't admit that. Generally I think he's better off with a locked i5, given it's cheaper than the setup he's considering. And if he's not playing CPU-intensive games, the two processors should perform the same. So of course I'd advise the cheaper one............

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post

I didn't find that thread as credible or relevant to the Intel vs AMD debate** as the following one:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1337699/sandy-bridge-vs-nehalem-vs-bulldozer-vs-piledriver-benchmarks
Although that thread doesn't include ivy bridge, it still shows Piledriver/Vishera behind sandy bridge in most (not all) games they tested. I'd be curious to hear the reason you think these OCN posters are not doing a good job...........

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post

Yeah, the component selection in those tests could have been better (though an i7-3820 is a perfectly acceptable stand-in for an i7-2600k)..........So what do we learn from these series of benchmarks? Nothing. Conventional wisdom already held that in most games there would be no difference between Piledriver/Vishera & Ivy Bridge - most games are, after all, GPU-bound. ..

I've always suspected you might have a strong bias toward intel, and I think that based on the above, my suspicions are confirmed. OP mentioned he wanted to do CFX/SLI+6300 to which you responded by suggesting he cut corners with a cheapo, dead end board, which doesn't even support CFX/SLI so that he can afford to go with a locked i5. Then, you acknowledge that an overclocked 6300 would be just as good as your original suggestion but continue to try and mislead everyone by saying that OP's plans for a quality mobo (that does CFX @ 16X, 16X) and 6300 would be MORE expensive by $100 while failing to clarify said price difference....

Moreover, you discredit a comparison between two equally priced CPU's in exchange for a comparison between a $130 Vishera CPU and a $300 SB i7 CPU, only to later admit that the component selection "could have been better." All the flip-flopping, cherry picking and the mentioning of Microcenter make it obvious that you are desperately trying to sell something that is probably not in the best interest of the OP. If you weren't biased, then I think the above would not be true, and you would have originally stated what you said on your third post.

Please dont take it personal. I am merely making an observation that I think would help anyone considering your well presented, but often weighted advice.
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post #93 of 127
Quote:
AMD FX6300
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Nice build! I skimmed through this thread(maybe this has been answered earlier), why only 4GB of RAM? I hope you pick up a Hyper 212 Evo for overclocking, I like this build not to expensive and gets the job done.
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post #94 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2advanced View Post

I've always suspected you might have a strong bias toward intel, and I think that based on the above, my suspicions are confirmed. OP mentioned he wanted to do CFX/SLI+6300 to which you responded by suggesting he cut corners with a cheapo, dead end board, which doesn't even support CFX/SLI so that he can afford to go with a locked i5. Then, you acknowledge that an overclocked 6300 would be just as good as your original suggestion but continue to try and mislead everyone by saying that OP's plans for a quality mobo (that does CFX @ 16X, 16X) and 6300 would be MORE expensive by $100 while failing to clarify said price difference....
Moreover, you discredit a comparison between two equally priced CPU's in exchange for a comparison between a $130 Vishera CPU and a $300 SB i7 CPU, only to later admit that the component selection "could have been better." All the flip-flopping, cherry picking and the mentioning of Microcenter make it obvious that you are desperately trying to sell something that is probably not in the best interest of the OP. If you weren't biased, then I think the above would not be true, and you would have originally stated what you said on your third post.
Please dont take it personal. I am merely making an observation that I think would help anyone considering your well presented, but often weighted advice.

Obviously I think you're wrong. I am biased towards cheap performance. But your impressions are your own. However, I do want to correct one thing which is simply wrong: I did not recommend a board that cannot crossfire. There are plenty of cheap B75 mobos that can crossfire. The ASRock B75 PRO3 is $75 on newegg.com right now, for instance.

P.S. I'm sure you didn't do this on purpose, but your edit of that last quote from me is somewhat misleading. It implies that the second half of the quote applies to the benchmark thread with the i7-3820 mentioned in the first part of the quote & in the fifth quote, which is incorrect.
Edited by MisterFred - 12/21/12 at 9:43pm
    
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post #95 of 127
I also failed to notice the OP's SLI/CFX requirement, which would rule out most inexpensive LGA-1155 boards.

That said, as a former SLI GTX 460 and CFX 6970 user who actually had few issues and enjoyed the setups, I'd recommend against SLI/CFX. In general, I simply see single powerful GPUs as more viable, especially for anything resembling a budget. Mid-range SLI/CFX setups are matched or beaten by high end cards for not much more, and have fewer power, heat, or driver/compatibility issue.

Even as an upgrade path SLI/CFX are dubious. All things considered, it's often an all round better idea to sell one's current card and buy a single new gen card, than try to add a second card from a generation or two ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimaggio1103 View Post

Except the 8350 visheras are already matching/beating current Ivy counterparts in benchmarks while losing in others. The fact that in multi threaded performance it matches and even beats the 3570K priced around the same

I am both well aware of, and completely agree with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimaggio1103 View Post

Now take into account that AMD is addressing the main failures of the bulldozer/vishera architecture and fixing them so the raw integer performance will not suffer as much anymore. They are fixing the architecture as already publicly stated by AMD.
To sum up if a 8350 can match/beat the 3570K in a good amount of tests, and steamroller will be at least 15% faster (that's a very conservative number) some are estimating around 25-30%, than by simple deduction, you can guess which is the better upgrade path.

By the time Steamroller comes out, a 3770k might be the better upgrade path (from an i5/i3).

A lot of what I do benefits considerably from HT, and 12-18 months from now, I will easily be able to get a 3770k for under 200 dollars.

If Steamroller meets expectations, it will be a toss up. If it doesn't live up, the 3770k is likely to still be a superior chip overall. Steamroller will only be a clear cut winner if it exceeds most of the reasonable, if somewhat vague, expectation.

I'll probably end up with Steamroller regardless. I have both AM3+ and LGA-1155 boards, with a 2700k in the 1155 board, but an FX-8150 in the AM3+ setup, and if anything is certain it's that Steamroller will be much more of an upgrade for Bulldozer than Ivy is for Sandy.
Edited by Blameless - 12/21/12 at 9:31pm
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post #96 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post

.........However, I do want to correct one thing which is simply wrong: I did not recommend a board that cannot crossfire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post

At us.ncix.com the i5-3470 is $170. The fx-6300 is $129.
At the same place an MSI B75m cheapo is $65, but I googled Dimaggio's motherboard and it was $70 at newegg so I just equated the motherboard costs for convenience purposes. Then I googled Dimaggio's corsair H80. But I didn't add in the extra cost of his (presumably purchased separately) thermal paste.
$170 (i5-3470) + $70 (B75m)
$130 (fx-6300) + $70 (AsRock 970) + $100 (Corsair H80)......

You didn't specifically recommend this board, but considering the topic and arguments, I would say its safe to assume that you were endorsing this board to help keep costs down to make room in the budget for an i5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post

Obviously I think you're wrong. I am biased towards cheap performance.....

Hmmm, would it be fair to say that your biased toward sacrificing quality and features in exchange for said performance?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post

P.S. I'm sure you didn't do this on purpose, but your edit of that last quote from me is somewhat misleading. It implies that the second half of the quote applies to the benchmark thread with the i7-3820 mentioned in the first part of the quote, which is incorrect.

Correct. I was just trying to trim the quotes so the reply wouldn't be so long.
Edited by 2advanced - 12/21/12 at 9:44pm
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post #97 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2advanced View Post

You didn't specifically recommend this board, but considering the topic and argument you were trying to make, I would say its safe to assume that you would suggest this board to anyone.
Hmmm, would it be fair to say that your biased toward sacrificing quality and features in exchange for said performance?

Would I recommend the B75m board to anyone? No. There are a number of people for whom a full-ATX sized board is pretty important. Anyone wanting to crossfire, for instance. Or someone who wants to overclock their GPU & wants a pci-e discrete sound card (could restrict airflow to GPU on some B75m boards).

As for sacrificing quality & features... depends on how you define it. The MSI B75m board I mentioned and you so helpfully bolded in the quote above is absolutely a lower quality board than, say, an Asus Z77 Sabertooth. And it has less features. But someone who just has a simple i5-3470, 2x4gb of RAM, and a video card to run is not going to notice a difference. They're not going to use any of the many extra features on the Sabertooth and the i5-3470, being locked, is going to run just as well on either board...

So yeah, when it doesn't affect performance & the features aren't needed, I do recommend lower-quality feature-poor boards because of their lower cost. I'll let you decide if that qualifies as sacrificing or not.

I should note that there have been a number of people in this thread who assume I've been on a crusade trying to convince the OP to get an fx-6300. This is not the case, as after I first recommended and i5-3470 to theOP, the OP clarified he wanted to overclock for fun. Since then I've said the fx-6300 is best for him. Although in correcting the mistaken impression I was trying to change the OP's mind after that multiple times did give me the opportunity to quote myself quoting myself earlier in the thread, which tickled my funny bone. Instead I've been discussing the performance for cost benefits of locked i5s in gaming when compared with an overclocked fx-6300 for the average performance-conscious gamer almost entirely through responding to other people's posts. A similar misunderstanding may have caused you to think I recommended any B75 cheapo board to the OP when I initially considered one that could crossfire for him, since he mentioned crossfire in his original post.
    
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post #98 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post

$130 (fx-6300) + $70 (AsRock 970) + $100 (Corsair H80)

OCing an FX-6300 on that board with a cooler that doesn't blow significant air directly over the VRM is asking for trouble.

I'd spend more on the board and less on the cooler, for that chip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2advanced View Post

Hmmm, would it be fair to say that your biased toward sacrificing quality and features in exchange for said performance?

I know this was direct at Fred, but since I am advocating a similar strategy for a 1155 build, at least for gaming purposes, I'll chip in...

Depending on purpose of the build, I am very willing to sacrifice features, and quality is relative. What I mean by the latter is that, if one chip is pulling 70A through a board, and another is pulling 150A, a VRM/board that can safely handle 100A may well be of better relative quality for the first chip than one that can safely handle 180A for the second.

I don't always cheap out (my primary system has a 370 dollar motherboard), but I do always weigh my options carefully and if doing without something that I won't use saves me a buck, then I save.
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post #99 of 127
@Blameless
Hey, just noticed the DOS gaming system in your sig. Pretty impressive you've got one going. I miss some of the old DOS games I enjoyed. Command HQ, Mech Warrior, etc. Well "miss" might be strong, except for Command HQ, "have nostalgia for" might be more accurate.

Any particular games you kept it around to run?
    
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post #100 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

I also failed to notice the OP's SLI/CFX requirement, which would rule out most inexpensive LGA-1155 boards.
That said, as a former SLI GTX 460 and CFX 6970 user who actually had few issues and enjoyed the setups, I'd recommend against SLI/CFX. In general, I simply see single powerful GPUs as more viable, especially for anything resembling a budget. Mid-range SLI/CFX setups are matched or beaten by high end cards for not much more, and have fewer power, heat, or driver/compatibility issue.
Even as an upgrade path SLI/CFX are dubious. All things considered, it's often an all round better idea to sell one's current card and buy a single new gen card, than try to add a second card from a generation or two ago.
I am both well aware of, and completely agree with this.
By the time Steamroller comes out, a 3770k might be the better upgrade path (from an i5/i3).
A lot of what I do benefits considerably from HT, and 12-18 months from now, I will easily be able to get a 3770k for under 200 dollars
.
If Steamroller meets expectations, it will be a toss up. If it doesn't live up, the 3770k is likely to still be a superior chip overall. Steamroller will only be a clear cut winner if it exceeds most of the reasonable, if somewhat vague, expectation.
I'll probably end up with Steamroller regardless. I have both AM3+ and LGA-1155 boards, with a 2700k in the 1155 board, but an FX-8150 in the AM3+ setup, and if anything is certain it's that Steamroller will be much more of an upgrade for Bulldozer than Ivy is for Sandy.

How do you figure that? the 2600 was released what about 2 years ago and is still over $300 bucks? Lmao, you think a 3770k will be under $200 by the time steamroller hits the streets.

There is no way that is gonna happen bro.

As I said 6300 is better than a i3 or i5 locked. plus, its not a dead socket like 1155.

Don't know why you guys continue to beat a dead horse he already said no locked CPU's

If your mission is to "further knowledge" like Mr.Fred said, quit hijacking this thread about OP's build and make your own thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

OCing an FX-6300 on that board with a cooler that doesn't blow significant air directly over the VRM is asking for trouble.
I'd spend more on the board and less on the cooler, for that chip.

Really? cause my 4.6GHz does just fine.....very easy to put a fan over the vrm's Plus I already stated H80 is overkill.
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