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E8400: voltage, VID, temps, electromigration and lifespan - Page 3

post #21 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemans81 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyoketsu View Post

Thanks for the input, lemans. Looks like you and your friend had/have some pretty nice chips there. I can't help but envy you when I look at the voltage - here I am struggling to achieve 4.3GHz at 1.5v, hah. Ah, by the way, what did you mean by "volted to the max"? The values allowed by the board's BIOS? What were they?

The max being the 1.45v recommended by intel. Honestly we ran a lot of different boards, from P35's to P45's. I know the blood iron P35 was a really fine board for overclocking(gigabyte had a nice one too). Then at the end I was running a gigabyte P45 I think, and it had so little vdroop it was an amazing board. But we tried things all over the place.
Ah, I see. For 1.45v, those results really are darn impressive.
I, on the other hand, am pushing the limits here. One of the prime threads failed after 14 and a half hours(GRRRRR!), running 4.32GHz(480*9) at 1.504v. At this rate, 4.5GHz would probably require around 1.6v to be stable. Too bad that would immensely lower my chip's lifespan, if not kill it outright. I guess I'll just fiddle around with the current settings, to make 4.32 stable... Though I MIGHT do a little suicide run before that, hehe.
The question is whether a 180MHz bump is worth raising the voltage by a whopping 0.1v for daily usage... Ah, hell, it's an oldie anyway. If any signs of degradation begin to occur, I'll just back off a bit, and post my findings here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just a nickname View Post

You are asking the max possible safe voltage. Nobody know and the situation vary with the CPU used.
If you are overclocking and using high voltage and cannot replace the CPU in case it dies, don't do it.

These CPU are very sturdy. I got one a long time ago, it's been running at 40C idle in a hot box for 2-3 years until I changed the stock cooler and overclocked it to 3.6GHz. Still doing fine.
Errrr, no, not quite. "safe voltage" is a relative term, and I realize perfectly well that it varies from CPU to CPU. I'm more interested in electromigration, the very process that is behind CPU decay due to excessive voltage. More specifically, the impact of heat, and whether a higher VID could possibly have any influence on the speed of this process.
Edited by Hyoketsu - 12/20/12 at 1:48pm
     
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post #22 of 30
Understand and Avoid Electromigration (EM) & IR-drop in Custom IP Blocks

I get brain lock just reading it. Too many terms outside my experience. Maybe Duckie Ho would know?
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post #23 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alancsalt View Post

Understand and Avoid Electromigration (EM) & IR-drop in Custom IP Blocks

I get brain lock just reading it. Too many terms outside my experience. Maybe Duckie Ho would know?

Oooh, thanks for the link. I'll read it after getting some sleep... If the world is still around when I wake up, that is biggrin.gif

Ah, I also just noticed the E8500&E8600 CPU-Z validations in your sig. Those results, sir, are mighty darn impressive! 2 questions to be asked here:
1)What sort of cooling did you use to achieve those results? Can't be the same True 120 you mentioned earlier... can it?
2)I'm pretty sure those are suicide run milestones, but could they mayhap be... stable results?!
Edited by Hyoketsu - 12/20/12 at 5:11pm
     
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post #24 of 30
Single stage phase, at -42°C, and just for hwbot, so not stable....well, CPUZ stable biggrin.gif

The 2500K though, just on a Corsair H50....
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post #25 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyoketsu View Post

Errrr, no, not quite. "safe voltage" is a relative term, and I realize perfectly well that it varies from CPU to CPU. I'm more interested in electromigration, the very process that is behind CPU decay due to excessive voltage. More specifically, the impact of heat, and whether a higher VID could possibly have any influence on the speed of this process.

Electromigration happens all the time at any voltage & temperature. It greatly increases as you increases the voltage & the temperature. Why? Material resistance is proportional to temperature. If you also increases the amount of electron (delta potential = voltage), more electrons will collide.

Extreme OCers do not use liquid gaz mainly because it is very cold. The main advantage is that you get very low resistance reducing electron collision hence allowing a greater current flow (more voltage).

Increasing temperature => increases resistance => increases collisions => increases electromigration

Increasing voltage => increases odds of a collision since there are more electron "flowing" => more electromigration

The thing that is damaging the most CPU and electronics components are cosmic rays. These are bombarding the earths of very fast particles interacting especially with electronic components. Your CPU risk to die more due to that than electromigration. Intel has built their chip to deal with that phenomenon. You might lose performance in the long term but that is a very slow process.
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post #26 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alancsalt View Post

Single stage phase, at -42°C, and just for hwbot, so not stable....well, CPUZ stable biggrin.gif

The 2500K though, just on a Corsair H50....
Very impressive!~
I read the document you posted. Indeed, 'twas some rather heavy stuff, though I did manage to grasp some basic concepts. Thank you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just a nickname View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyoketsu View Post

Errrr, no, not quite. "safe voltage" is a relative term, and I realize perfectly well that it varies from CPU to CPU. I'm more interested in electromigration, the very process that is behind CPU decay due to excessive voltage. More specifically, the impact of heat, and whether a higher VID could possibly have any influence on the speed of this process.

Electromigration happens all the time at any voltage & temperature. It greatly increases as you increases the voltage & the temperature. Why? Material resistance is proportional to temperature. If you also increases the amount of electron (delta potential = voltage), more electrons will collide.

Extreme OCers do not use liquid gaz mainly because it is very cold. The main advantage is that you get very low resistance reducing electron collision hence allowing a greater current flow (more voltage).

Increasing temperature => increases resistance => increases collisions => increases electromigration

Increasing voltage => increases odds of a collision since there are more electron "flowing" => more electromigration

The thing that is damaging the most CPU and electronics components are cosmic rays. These are bombarding the earths of very fast particles interacting especially with electronic components. Your CPU risk to die more due to that than electromigration. Intel has built their chip to deal with that phenomenon. You might lose performance in the long term but that is a very slow process.

Thanks for the input, that was quite helpful thumb.gif So, on the topic of temperature, do you think there would be a discernible difference in the speed of EM if we compared running a CPU at 60C with one that was running at 80C? Or would only sub-zero cooling make a noticeable impact? That's what I'm most interested in, since I'm finding it difficult to grasp the size of impact heat has on EM, compared to other contributing factors.
     
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post #27 of 30
Quote:
Thermal effects
In an ideal conductor, where atoms are arranged in a perfect lattice structure, the electrons moving through it would experience no collisions and electromigration would not occur. In real conductors, defects in the lattice structure and the random thermal vibration of the atoms about their positions causes electrons to collide with the atoms and scatter, which is the source of electrical resistance (at least in metals; see electrical conduction). Normally, the amount of momentum imparted by the relatively low-mass electrons is not enough to permanently displace the atoms. However, in high-power situations (such as with the increasing current draw and decreasing wire sizes in modern VLSI microprocessors), if many electrons bombard the atoms with enough force to become significant, this will accelerate the process of electromigration by causing the atoms of the conductor to vibrate further from their ideal lattice positions, increasing the amount of electron scattering. High current density increases the number of electrons scattering against the atoms of the conductor, and hence the speed at which those atoms are displaced.
In integrated circuits, electromigration does not occur in semiconductors directly, but in the metal interconnects deposited onto them (see semiconductor device fabrication).
Electromigration is exacerbated by high current densities and the Joule heating of the conductor (see electrical resistance), and can lead to eventual failure of electrical components. Localized increase of current density is known as current crowding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration

Heat caused by collisions that are causing electromigration. Heat increases the molecular vibration thus increasing the odds of collisions.

With no molecular vibration (very low temperature), the lattice structure is nearly perfect hence less resistance causing less collisions.

60C to 80C will make a difference but will it be noticeable? I doubt.
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post #28 of 30
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the input! I was thinking along the same lines too... But yeah, this sure is a difficult topic to answer clearly due to all the uncertain factors.

In other news, I reached 4.32GHz stable(most probably, haha), woot! What it took was raising the NB,SB and FSB termination voltages a notch each (simultaneously, since I can't be bothered to run 3 long-arse tests in a row). Went through 18 hours 21 minutes of Prime small FFTs without a hitch, at which point I had to turn my PC off.


I guess I'll be running at these clocks for a while, and see whether any degradation does actually occur. I'll report back with the findings once in a while. I'll probably also do a suicide run once the holiday fever dies down a bit. While the voltage on this chip sucks, it's refreshing not to be hitting some invisible wall for once: my old Q6600 B3 could run rock-solid at 3.0GHz/1.32V, but anything past that would fail, even if the vcore was cranked all the way up to 1.5v (tweaking other BIOS settings did no good either), so in the end I traded it for this e8400.
Best. Decision. EVER. smile.gif


If anyone else can add something to the discussion - by all means, please do!
Cheers!~
     
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Samsung SyncMaster 795mb 17" Microsoft Internet Keyboard Gigabyte GE-R460-V1 460W Caseless 
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post #29 of 30
I can do 5GHz with this CPU quite easily but 5.2GHz requires a lot of extra voltage.

I run it at 4.2GHz every day use because I never came across a game that would requires extra CPU juices. Stock speed would even be fine as lately I rarely game and the GPU is the actual limiting factor. It is useless to waste energy/efficiency running it at 5GHz for me.
In your situation, ask yourself if you do need those maybe 100-200 extra MHz at the cost of extra heat/voltage & risk your chip degrades much faster. There is no graph but considering efficiency is not linear with heat/voltage used, I tend to think degradation is exponential with heat/voltage used too. Transistors are conceived to work with a range of voltage (VID). More or less voltage and the efficiency greatly reduces (even with low voltage efficiency can also not be optimal).

I would prefer put the money into a new GPU instead of replacing my CPU/mobo. You can sell your graphic card (100$) to get a 7870 (200$) by example. A 4GHz E8400 will barely bottleneck the GPU (as far as I know)...

Edit : 2cents.gif

Oh and you know you can sell your CPU/mobo instead of killing the CPU? I am sure some one might be interested since your CPU seems to be a good clocker (frequency is scaling with voltage ; no wall). Under extreme cooling it may be able to get something interesting? Who knows? tongue.gif

I sold my i5-750 with his motherboard for 200$. You might get less for your combo but some one could still be interested. Instead of killing the CPU to get a new system, why not sell it to help you upgrading?

I personally upgraded at a null cost by selling my i7-870 & my EVGA classified 200 to a 2600k & z77x-ud3h and seriously that was such an awesome upgrade. System running cooler, overclock like a charm, etc. I am very happy with it smile.gif
Edited by Just a nickname - 12/22/12 at 12:56pm
My System
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My System
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i7-2600k Gigabyte z77x-UD3H GTX 770 4GB 2x4 gb samsung 1600MHz 7-8-8 
Hard DriveCoolingPowerCase
Samsung F3 spinpoint & ADATA SSD 128GB Custom water loopie Corsair 750W Bitphenix Monstrous water cooling case 
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post #30 of 30
Thread Starter 
Upgrading isn't really an option due to my pretty much nonexistent budget. Especially the graphics card - at this point, upgrading it would be utter insanity due to the resolutions I play at(either 1280*960 or 1152*864. 1600*1200 is eyecancer due to forced 60hz, which, on CRTs, sucks really bad). Even if I did have cash to spare, it would go towards a new monitor first and foremost. With my current setup, I'm ALWAYS CPU-bound... Distributed computing aside, that is smile.gif
Besides, I'm not planning on killing my CPU either - if I notice anything weird, I'll immediately back off.
Edited by Hyoketsu - 12/22/12 at 2:22pm
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
E8400 E0 4.32GHz @1.504v Asus P5Q Pro Turbo MSI R6870 Hawk 2x2GB G.Skill DDR2-1066, 5-5-5-15 
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Samsung 840 EVO 120GB Samsung Spinpoint F3 1TB Lite-On iHAS122 CoolerMaster Hyper 212+ 
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Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 64-Bit Acer X243H 24" Microsoft SideWinder x4 Chieftec BPS-650C 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Aerocool X-Warrior Black Edition Logitech RX1000 Generic black mousepad Asus Xonar DG 
AudioOther
Creative Inspire T3100 Saitek Cyborg V.3 RumblePad 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Pentium 4 HT Northwood 3.4 @ 3.5GHz ASRock P4i48 Club3D Radeon HD4670 AGP 1GB 2x1GB PQI DDR400 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
SAMSUNG HD320LJ 320GB SATA Lite-On iHAS122 Scythe Katana 3 Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 32Bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Samsung SyncMaster 795mb 17" Microsoft Internet Keyboard Gigabyte GE-R460-V1 460W Caseless 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Logitech RX1000 Generic black mouse pad Onboard Creative Inspire T3100 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
E8400 E0 4.32GHz @1.504v Asus P5Q Pro Turbo MSI R6870 Hawk 2x2GB G.Skill DDR2-1066, 5-5-5-15 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung 840 EVO 120GB Samsung Spinpoint F3 1TB Lite-On iHAS122 CoolerMaster Hyper 212+ 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 64-Bit Acer X243H 24" Microsoft SideWinder x4 Chieftec BPS-650C 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Aerocool X-Warrior Black Edition Logitech RX1000 Generic black mousepad Asus Xonar DG 
AudioOther
Creative Inspire T3100 Saitek Cyborg V.3 RumblePad 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Pentium 4 HT Northwood 3.4 @ 3.5GHz ASRock P4i48 Club3D Radeon HD4670 AGP 1GB 2x1GB PQI DDR400 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
SAMSUNG HD320LJ 320GB SATA Lite-On iHAS122 Scythe Katana 3 Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 32Bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Samsung SyncMaster 795mb 17" Microsoft Internet Keyboard Gigabyte GE-R460-V1 460W Caseless 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Logitech RX1000 Generic black mouse pad Onboard Creative Inspire T3100 
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