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[Xbitlabs]Intel’s Haswell to Feature Secrete Weapon: Integrated Voltage Regulator. - Page 11

post #101 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

While I share your concerns about Intel having more control over power delivery, the technical aspects of integrating the VRM are superior to an external one.
It will be more efficient, potentially able to deliver more power, and be easier to cool, not the opposite.
We are talking 95%+ efficiency on the VRM (good external ones are already at 90-95%), so if the CPU needs 100w, the VRM will only add 5w more to total package power. This is trivial, and probably less heat added to the package than would be added by a traditional, external VRM heating the area around the CPU by 20-30C.
Lets not get ahead of ourselves. The slides are over 2 years old and depict a VRM that's only 76% efficient.
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post #102 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by CL3P20 View Post

 So much LOL !!


 I cant even..  wheee.gif   .. seriously though ..wth.gif   Why do people feel that they are obligated to leave a comment on a topic they so obviously know so little about..?
You're right. I am absolutely clueless about putting inductors in an IC. I've never seen a buck converter without the choke packaged separately from the transistors. I've just seen the switching transistors packaged with the mosfet driver.

 

 

 Thats all fine and dandy.. good words. 

 

 Bottom line = VRM power phases are not in CPU !! This idea is preposterous. VRM control is what is in CPU.. nothing more. Typical mobo design prior to skt 1150 has power phase control IC on the motherboard PCB near the CPU socket and power phases. The functions of this IC - in controlling VRM's is moved within CPU. Nothing more.

post #103 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post

Lets not get ahead of ourselves. The slides are over 2 years old and depict a VRM that's only 76% efficient.

I wasn't talking about the slides. And where are you seeing 76% efficiency?

There is no reason for the final integrated DC to DC VRM to be less efficient that what is commonly achievable everywhere else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CL3P20 View Post


Thats all fine and dandy.. good words.

Bottom line = VRM power phases are not in CPU !! This idea is preposterous. VRM control is what is in CPU.. nothing more. Typical mobo design prior to skt 1150 has power phase control IC on the motherboard PCB near the CPU socket and power phases. The functions of this IC - in controlling VRM's is moved within CPU. Nothing more.

Are you certain, because the slides/article clearly show a VRM integrated onto the CPU package, not just the functions of the control/driver IC.

12v should be delivered to the processor pads, with conversion to other voltages used happening entirely on package, if not entirely on die.

This has already been demonstrated.
Edited by Blameless - 12/28/12 at 7:53pm
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post #104 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

I wasn't talking about the slides. And where are you seeing 76% efficiency?
There is no reason for the final integrated DC to DC VRM to be less efficient that what is commonly achievable everywhere else.
Posted it on previous page: http://www.psma.com/sites/default/files/uploads/tech-forums-nanotechnology/resources/400a-fully-integrated-silicon-voltage-regulator.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by CL3P20 View Post


 Thats all fine and dandy.. good words. 

 Bottom line = VRM power phases are not in CPU !! This idea is preposterous. VRM control is what is in CPU.. nothing more. Typical mobo design prior to skt 1150 has power phase control IC on the motherboard PCB near the CPU socket and power phases. The functions of this IC - in controlling VRM's is moved within CPU. Nothing more.
See above link, it's a 400A VRM prototype manufactured on a 90nm process. It operates from a 2.4v input voltage.
Edited by TranquilTempest - 12/28/12 at 8:18pm
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post #105 of 163

Ah, I see.

The slides state 82% speculated efficiency for production level devices, not including any further advances (which are likely).

Even with this relatively low efficiency, 10-15% extra power form the integrated VRM should not be hard to remove, especially when there are no external VRMs adding heat to the board, or taking up room around the socket that could otherwise go to a cooling solution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post

see above link, it's a 400w VRM prototype manufactured on a 90nm process.

Yep, it's the whole VRM.

Also, this article shows a complete on package VRM from 2005: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6355/intels-haswell-architecture/2
Edited by Blameless - 12/28/12 at 8:12pm
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post #106 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Ah, I see.
The slides state 82% speculated efficiency for production level devices, not including any further advances (which are likely).
Even with this relatively low efficiency, 10-15% extra power form the integrated VRM should not be hard to remove, especially when there are no external VRMs adding heat to the board, or taking up room around the socket that could otherwise go to a cooling solution.
Yep, it's the whole VRM.
Also, this article shows a complete on package VRM from 2005: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6355/intels-haswell-architecture/2
There's another presentation from the same 2010 conference about a different on-package solution http://www.psma.com/sites/default/files/uploads/tech-forums-nanotechnology/resources/a60mhz-50w-fine-grain-package.pdf

Maybe the higher input voltage helps efficiency.
Edited by TranquilTempest - 12/28/12 at 8:22pm
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post #107 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post

There's another presentation from the same 2010 conference about a different on-package solution http://www.psma.com/sites/default/files/uploads/tech-forums-nanotechnology/resources/a60mhz-50w-fine-grain-package.pdf
Maybe the higher input voltage helps efficiency.

Thanks for the links.

Actually, from these slides it looks like lower input voltage is helping efficiency.

I didn't see the input voltage listed in your first link, but I'm assuming it was +12v because of the standard 24+8 pin ATX+EPS connectors shown on the test setup. However, in the second set of slides page 3 and 11 clearly state they are using 3.3v input, yet 6%+ higher efficiency.

Maybe there will be some more staging going on in Haswell, maybe some sort of external VRM will be retained, maybe some breakthrough has given them good efficiency with 12v, or maybe they will simply settle for a few percent lower efficiency.

The only possibility I don't see is requiring PSUs to deliver more 3.3v power. That would require a pretty dramatic market shift. I know this has happened before, but that was from 5v to 12v, and was advantageous to PSU makers, as well as happening when the total market was smaller.

I guess time will tell.
Edited by Blameless - 12/28/12 at 8:41pm
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post #108 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post

There's another presentation from the same 2010 conference about a different on-package solution http://www.psma.com/sites/default/files/uploads/tech-forums-nanotechnology/resources/a60mhz-50w-fine-grain-package.pdf
Maybe the higher input voltage helps efficiency.

Thanks for the links.

Actually, from these slides it looks like lower input voltage is helping efficiency.

I didn't see the input voltage listed in your first link, but I'm assuming it was +12v because of the standard 24+8 pin ATX+EPS connectors shown on the test setup. However, in the second set of slides page 3 and 11 clearly state they are using 3.3v input, yet 6%+ higher efficiency.

Maybe there will be some more staging going on in Haswell, maybe some sort of external VRM will be retained, maybe some breakthrough has given them good efficiency with 12v, or maybe they will simply settle for a few percent lower efficiency.

The only possibility I don't see is requiring PSUs to deliver more 3.3v power. That would require a pretty dramatic market shift. I know this has happened before, but that was from 5v to 12v, and was advantageous to PSU makers, as well as happening when the total market was smaller.

I guess time will tell.

I reckon we'll get 12v from the PSU, convert it to 3.3v or so and then send that to the CPU which converts it to whichever voltage it requires. That sounds like the most likely scenario.
    
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post #109 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Thanks for the links.
Actually, from these slides it looks like lower input voltage is helping efficiency.
I didn't see the input voltage listed in your first link, but I'm assuming it was +12v because of the standard 24+8 pin ATX+EPS connectors shown on the test setup. However, in the second set of slides page 3 and 11 clearly state they are using 3.3v input, yet 6%+ higher efficiency.
Maybe there will be some more staging going on in Haswell, maybe some sort of external VRM will be retained, maybe some breakthrough has given them good efficiency with 12v, or maybe they will simply settle for a few percent lower efficiency.
The only possibility I don't see is requiring PSUs to deliver more 3.3v power. That would require a pretty dramatic market shift. I know this has happened before, but that was from 5v to 12v, and was advantageous to PSU makers, as well as happening when the total market was smaller.
I guess time will tell.
The first one was 2.4v, orange text on page 24. I'm sure you're right about ATX/EPS 12v sticking around, and I don't see any reason to do the final step down in the PSU. Most new PSUs are basically a 12v supply with everything else DC-DC anyway.
Edited by TranquilTempest - 12/28/12 at 8:55pm
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post #110 of 163
Well, in that case, I think my original expectation of 95% efficiency for what's in Haswell probably isn't too far out of line.

I did think it odd that 12v input seemed less efficient, as I know PSUs and such are much efficient the higher the input voltage. Thanks for the clarification.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Xbitlabs]Intel’s Haswell to Feature Secrete Weapon: Integrated Voltage Regulator.