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post #681 of 4087
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qrux View Post

@ComputerRestore - I'm definitely not claiming expertise. Most of my choices were trial-and-error, and I can only confirm that my results worked for my particular case. Additionally, I have no idea about "binning", or whether I have "flaky" parts or "solid" parts...(Also, I don't know how to quote...)
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
To get to your questions...I chose DRAM Current of 130% because I inferred--though this isn't based on any evidence (because I'm not a get-out-the-multimeter-and-start-measuring-pins-on-the-mobo kind of guy)--that just like CPU Current, upping the current through the memory doesn't actually cause it to use more current; but simply allows more current to flow.

Most of the posts in this thread talk about 2 sticks. I think DEUSXXX's post that you linked to in the guide was the only one that stuck out for me as someone using 4 sticks (though, that may just be bad analog memory on my part). Since I'm already busy making assumption (and asses), I just sorta thought, based on shaky high school physics first principles, that more sticks probably means "more juice needed". Meaning, since I was using a fixed voltage setting for the DRAM, I should probably allow more current. If I had to guess, (making more asses by the minute), I'd say that the 130% DRAM Current Capability is probably helping more than my DRAM voltage setting. Astute high-schoolers will realize at this point that I failed to factor in "resistance" in my shoddy guesswork. And they'd be right, because I just have no idea if these setting apply to a single slot, or to the entire DRAM subsystem (assuming that's a thing), or how RAM interacts with the rest of the system electronically.

The reason I suspected memory in the first place (again, empirically, and not based on a sound theoretical understanding of how these things work) is that on the same OC profile, Prime95 Small FFT always worked (little-to-no memory accesses)--with very stable voltages and temps--but Blend (75% mem, which for me meant typing in '24576') was causing a lot of voltage fluctuations. So, I figured that since my sticks weren't at all warm (I've a fan blowing right onto them, so they stay pretty chilly--at least their heatsinks do) I could allow more current. Of course, I have no way of knowing if that change actually affected anything...

I had also read somewhere that the the M5A99X (and similar boards--I assumed they were referring to chipset) didn't really deal well with 4 sticks. I assumed that meant that it didn't allow high mem overclocks. I wanted them at 1600 (despite the SPD config), but I didn't push them past what the box said they could do.

I ended up at manually setting them (4 sticks of 8 GB) to 1600 MHz at 11-11-11-30-2T, with 1.4 V. At a later date, I may try to "tighten up the timings", but I suspect (based on prior failures at 9-9-9-24-1T) that I don't have much leeway here. Even with those settings, I still get Vcore fluctuations using Blend. But, the tests are passing, so I'm living with it...

As for the DRAM voltage...I chose 1.4 V as a "subjective compromise" between what DEUSXXX said about lowering DRAM voltage to reduce stress on the IMC "to improve stability" (which is probably being stressed pretty hard during the Blend-75% test) and going the other way (upping voltages) to...well, frankly, I don't know what a higher voltage potential for RAM does, other than assuming it was for analogous reasons to upping CPU voltage--which I would guess also improves stability. Odd that it could go both ways with DRAM.

The short answer is, I chose 1.4 V because of the potential "reduced IMC stress". Though, now that you've asked, I might try increasing the voltage--at least up to 1.65. Does anyone know if a DRAM voltage setting that's too low can cause CPU voltage ("Vcore", according to OCCT) to swing? I honestly don't know if upping it will "improve" things (i.e., allow a higher overclock for when I'm ready to try that, if ever), or even if lowering it to 1.4 is actually helping.

So, to the extent that I can add any data to this thread, it would be that for my memory, the 4x8GB sticks, my timings allow my setup to work. Now, having said that, the Corsair site lists this memory as "Dual Channel": Corsair XMS3 CMX16GX3M2A1600C11. I'm not sure what this means, and I'm worried that it might mean that 4 sticks of this stuff were never meant to be used together. I base that off the specs from a better Corsair product: Corsair Vengence Extreme, which explicitly state "Dual / Quad Channel". It makes me suspect that there might be some difference. (Info under "Tech Specs".)

@DEUSXXX - I'm pretty confused by your conclusion that running DRAM at 1.5 V (instead of 1.65 V) causes less power to go through the IMC. I'm definitely not saying you're wrong; I'm just trying to figure out 1) how you measured that, and 2) if this means that DRAM voltage is somehow "pushes" through to the CPU/NB (since you speculated that lower DRAM voltages might stabilize the IMC).

I'm just having a hard time seeing why DRAM voltage would affect the IMC. From my admittedly sketchy guesses, it would seem that simply using 4 sticks--as you were and as I current am--is what's increasing the current to the IMC (more stuff to control, more current flowing). When you measured the power through the IMC, was after changing settings? Or dropping down to 2 sticks?

And, you end with this:
What did you mean when you said "to have acceptable CPU/NB voltage"? Do you mean that increasing RAM speed requires a concomitant increase to CPU/NB voltage, so it was necessary to drop RAM speed to keep CPU/NB voltages from hurting the OC (by increasing the thermal load)...?

As for my own problem...To the extent my "problem" is these Vcore swings, I'm not sure which part of the chain (CPU/NB/IMC/DRAM) should be adjusted--or if the Vcore swings are even an issue (the system produces correct results, but maybe I'm frying my CPU/RAM?).

So, maybe going down to a DRAM Voltage of 1.4 V was unnecessary...I can see spending the next long-weekend doing some more tests. mad.gif I'm still interested to see if it's possible to somehow get my Vcore to be flat under Prime95 Blend load. It takes so long to figure out which knobs to turn and now to turn them...No conclusions here, yet.

Which is all to say...I realize I'm probably confusing many issues here, so thank you all for all the work you've put into this thread to help a nubsicle like me get even a modest overclock!

Thanks for the explenation for your choice. I was concerned about at which point it was required to increase the DRAM Current Capacity. You're right though, if it helps - then just do it. I'll update the guide to include this as there's no ill effect in having it higher, just the same as CPU and CPU/NB.

DRAM Voltage - It's effect on the IMC is due to the DRAM voltage also being the signalling voltage to the IMC. That's how it causes strain to the IMC. Same with more DIMMS and higher capacity Modules (1GB, 2GB,4GB,8GB etc)
Increasing the CPU/NB voltage helps keep the IMC stable while running outside of it's normal range (4x4GB DIMMS @ 1600Mhz 1.5v or 2x4GB DIMMS @ 1866Mhz)
But also increases the CPU thermals, and reduces the max stable overclock.

That's why you see Competitive Overclockers (Liquid Nitrogen etc) run with a single ram module at it's lowest spec and voltage.
post #682 of 4087
Tighter ram timings and speed require more power delivered to ram.
If the cpu is oced then the imc needs more power too, in order to keep up
with increased ram performance. If the timings are too tight and/or ram speed
too high even not oced cpu's might need imc voltage increase. The highest
the amount of memory capacity and memory modules the more power is needed.
All the above with the exception of someone lucky with very efficient/tolerant equipement.
This is my collective experience from oc'ing different platforms along the years.

From what info i have gathered the imc is controlling/regulating the current that
powers ram modules. So decreasing or at least trying to keep dram voltage as
low as possible seems to be less stressing for the imc which in return might improve stability.
In my case it did. I have no means to measure that but i tried the exact same settings
(timings/speed/cpu multi.. everytinhg) with only dram voltage changed at 1.8v.
My pc hanged after first ibt run, not to mention prime95....
So my assumption (please not a speculation) might be right.

One other thing i have noticed is that the general rule of overvolting a bit, finding stability
and then lowering voltages till stability is lost is not applied very well with piledrivers or
at least with mine. To be more specific: with 1.34 cpu/nb i am stable at 4.4. Just an increment
increase (around 0.009) and stability is lost although the temps are well within specs.
Increasing speed at 4.5ghz , cpu voltage one increment and cpu/nb voltage four increments (around 1.4v)
stable again! So although ~1.349 is well inside the ''stable spectrum'' it has to be paired with the
appropriate speed. Strange...

Trying to oc my cpu with only 2 ram modules takes me well away from these insane voltages
and the whole process is more or less simple like others have posted in this beautifull quide.

p.s. too low dram voltage even if not hurting stability might hurt performance.
your power swings are always below the central line, always above the central
line or just erratic?
p.s.2 unless i am terribly mistaken there is no way in hell to have 1T with four modules.
try tightening the other timers.
Pilerider Mk8
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Pilerider Mk8
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX 8350 @4.4ghz M5A99FX PRO R2.0 GTX 670 @1162Mhz max 4x4GB Kingston HyperX Genesis 1600Mhz 9-9-9-24-... 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
2xSamsung 830 128GB Raid0 Western Digital Caviar green 1TB Sata3 Lg optical dvd rw +r Corsair H80i 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Winf 7 pro Samsung S27B370H 60hz 1080p Microsoft X4 Nexus 1000w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Sharkoon  Razar DeathAdder 3.5g Roccat Taito Creative Labs Recon 3D 
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post #683 of 4087
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerRestore View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Thanks for the explenation for your choice. I was concerned about at which point it was required to increase the DRAM Current Capacity. You're right though, if it helps - then just do it. I'll update the guide to include this as there's no ill effect in having it higher, just the same as CPU and CPU/NB.

DRAM Voltage - It's effect on the IMC is due to the DRAM voltage also being the signalling voltage to the IMC. That's how it causes strain to the IMC. Same with more DIMMS and higher capacity Modules (1GB, 2GB,4GB,8GB etc)
Increasing the CPU/NB voltage helps keep the IMC stable while running outside of it's normal range (4x4GB DIMMS @ 1600Mhz 1.5v or 2x4GB DIMMS @ 1866Mhz)
But also increases the CPU thermals, and reduces the max stable overclock.

That's why you see Competitive Overclockers (Liquid Nitrogen etc) run with a single ram module at it's lowest spec and voltage.


^^^the expert gave a much better explanation about the imc:)
Pilerider Mk8
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX 8350 @4.4ghz M5A99FX PRO R2.0 GTX 670 @1162Mhz max 4x4GB Kingston HyperX Genesis 1600Mhz 9-9-9-24-... 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
2xSamsung 830 128GB Raid0 Western Digital Caviar green 1TB Sata3 Lg optical dvd rw +r Corsair H80i 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Winf 7 pro Samsung S27B370H 60hz 1080p Microsoft X4 Nexus 1000w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Sharkoon  Razar DeathAdder 3.5g Roccat Taito Creative Labs Recon 3D 
OtherOther
M-AUDIO AV-40 Aerocool Touch 1000 
  hide details  
Reply
Pilerider Mk8
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX 8350 @4.4ghz M5A99FX PRO R2.0 GTX 670 @1162Mhz max 4x4GB Kingston HyperX Genesis 1600Mhz 9-9-9-24-... 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
2xSamsung 830 128GB Raid0 Western Digital Caviar green 1TB Sata3 Lg optical dvd rw +r Corsair H80i 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Winf 7 pro Samsung S27B370H 60hz 1080p Microsoft X4 Nexus 1000w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Sharkoon  Razar DeathAdder 3.5g Roccat Taito Creative Labs Recon 3D 
OtherOther
M-AUDIO AV-40 Aerocool Touch 1000 
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post #684 of 4087
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeusXXX View Post

^^^the expert gave a much better explanation about the imc:)

Thanks Deus
I was going to say the same thing about your explanation. I get the feeling you've been Overclocking much much longer than me.
Quote:
One other thing i have noticed is that the general rule of overvolting a bit, finding stability
and then lowering voltages till stability is lost is not applied very well with piledrivers

You're exactly right. With good water cooling you can brute force the OC on these into the 4.8-5.0Ghz range and then tweak from there, but on normal cooling it's not really an option. But there is a large difference in performance at those frequencies between a brute forced OC and a fine tuned one. Some of the OCs at 5.0Ghz only have similar performance to 4.6Ghz because they're just that picky.
(other than the ones running 5.0Ghz on air that are just throttling)
post #685 of 4087
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerRestore View Post

Thanks Deus
I was going to say the same thing about your explanation. I get the feeling you've been Overclocking much much longer than me.
You're exactly right. With good water cooling you can brute force the OC on these into the 4.8-5.0Ghz range and then tweak from there, but on normal cooling it's not really an option. But there is a large difference in performance at those frequencies between a brute forced OC and a fine tuned one. Some of the OCs at 5.0Ghz only have similar performance to 4.6Ghz because they're just that picky.
(other than the ones running 5.0Ghz on air that are just throttling)

I can hit 24 hours prime95 stable at 4.8ghz with my 6300 on the evo r2.0 with 2x4gb gskills @1600mhz 9-9-9-24 1t 1.5v on air with the thermalright sb-e extreme cooler, doesnt seem to throttle but then how would i find out?

Also i cant get any higher than 4.8 without errors in p95 not even with 1.55v vcore.... maybe the 6+2 phase digi vrm's on these boards arent quite up to hitting the 5ghz or my chip just doesnt like me haha
post #686 of 4087
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeusXXX View Post

Tighter ram timings and speed require more power delivered to ram.
If the cpu is oced then the imc needs more power too, in order to keep up
with increased ram performance. If the timings are too tight and/or ram speed
too high even not oced cpu's might need imc voltage increase. The highest
the amount of memory capacity and memory modules the more power is needed.
All the above with the exception of someone lucky with very efficient/tolerant equipement.
This is my collective experience from oc'ing different platforms along the years.

From what info i have gathered the imc is controlling/regulating the current that
powers ram modules. So decreasing or at least trying to keep dram voltage as
low as possible seems to be less stressing for the imc which in return might improve stability.
In my case it did. I have no means to measure that but i tried the exact same settings
(timings/speed/cpu multi.. everytinhg) with only dram voltage changed at 1.8v.
My pc hanged after first ibt run, not to mention prime95....
So my assumption (please not a speculation) might be right.

One other thing i have noticed is that the general rule of overvolting a bit, finding stability
and then lowering voltages till stability is lost is not applied very well with piledrivers or
at least with mine. To be more specific: with 1.34 cpu/nb i am stable at 4.4. Just an increment
increase (around 0.009) and stability is lost although the temps are well within specs.
Increasing speed at 4.5ghz , cpu voltage one increment and cpu/nb voltage four increments (around 1.4v)
stable again! So although ~1.349 is well inside the ''stable spectrum'' it has to be paired with the
appropriate speed. Strange...

Trying to oc my cpu with only 2 ram modules takes me well away from these insane voltages
and the whole process is more or less simple like others have posted in this beautifull quide.

p.s. too low dram voltage even if not hurting stability might hurt performance.
your power swings are always below the central line, always above the central
line or just erratic?
p.s.2 unless i am terribly mistaken there is no way in hell to have 1T with four modules.
try tightening the other timers.

I have a new data point...Keeping everything else the same except DRAM Voltage, I bumped it from 1.4 V to 1.5 V. I was only able to run Blend (75%) for 9.5 hours before a core failed. I'm putting it back to 1.4 V, and running the Prime95 again. I hope I'll see greater-than-12-hour stability I had the last time I ran it at 1.4 V. Here's hoping for consistency (I'm only at 2 hours now...)

On a related note (seems all is related), my CPU/NB Voltage is at the low end of the recommended settings: 1.25 V. At this point, I'm having trouble understanding the relationships between settings. The feeling is that there a lot of knobs that can be turned, and turning some seems to require (or strongly suggest) turning others.

BTW, I found this reference:

Understanding All Voltage Configurations from the Motherboard

which is perfect for someone like me who doesn't know much about the electronics. It at least helps me know to which physical components the settings refer.

I'm surprised that upping the DRAM voltage (from 1.4 to 1.5) would make Blend more unstable. It certainly lends credence to the theory that DRAM voltage contributes to IMC stress. So, if upping DRAM Voltage increases IMC stress, is there a knob to turn that mitigates that stress? Would that be increasing CPU/NB Voltage?

@DeusXXX - I'm not surprised that 1.8 V DRAM wouldn't function well. That's near the JEDEC spec for max-voltage-before-damage, and there's no guarantee that it will function at that voltage. AFAIK, DDR3 is spec'ed between 1.5 and 1.65 V (unlike DDR2, which used much higher voltages, like 2.5). So, lower than 1.8 is definitely better, though that may not be an IMC issue; that may simply be that the DRAM is working well outside of spec?

Regarding my voltage swings...It's hard to say whether I'm seeing "droops" or "spikes". For example, right now, OCCT reports that Vcore spends a lot of time at 1.356 V, and "spikes" to 1.368 V. And, that is the common pattern. Though, it's hard to figure out if these are "long droops" or "short spikes". It does drop to 1.34, but that seems very infrequent--HAHA--nevermind, at this exact moment, I see "droops" now from 1.356 to 1.342.

Just for the record, I'm not trying to OC my memory...I'm just wondering if the voltages swings are hurting anything. If not, then I won't be concerned by it.

Finally, I'll post back after 12 hours of Blend (or sooner, if it fails).

TL;DR - Preliminarily, it seems that DRAM at 1.4 V helped Blend stability, at least on my 4-sticks-of-8GB of 1600 manually-clocked memory.
post #687 of 4087
Yep.

While perhaps not 100% scientifically rigorous, after dropping DRAM Voltage to 1.4 V (down from 1.5 V, which saw a single core failure after 9.5 hours), I successfully completed another 12+ hour run of Prime95 Blend (75%).

That's 2 Blend runs at 75% with DRAM Voltage at 1.4 V that exceeded 12 hours, and 1 Blend run at 95% with DRAM Voltage at 1.5 V that failed at 9.5 hours. And that's using 4 sticks (4x8GB) at DDR3-1600, 11-11-11-30-2T.

So, I'm going to call it--"myth confirmed".

Seems pretty clear that the DRAM voltage drop helps stability...However, I'm curious about something...Seems like I'm using *exactly* 75% of RAM (I type in 24576 MB into the "Custom" Blend memory-usage). What is the likelihood that running Blend is only exercising 3 sticks? And therefore not pushing *ALL* the RAM? I don't think it's too likely, because, with the OS, running Blend was using up to 26.7 GB. But, I think it's probably better to intentionally stress as much memory as possible.

I'll run another test with 28 GB (87.5% mem) for Prime95 (28672 MB in Custom)...

Oh--on a totally different note...For those who don't have cases that have a "DirectKey" button, it's simple to wire the Reset button into the DirectKey pins on the mobo. That was a HUGE, HUGE timesaver. thumb.gif

After connecting the Reset button that way, with the ASUS drivers installed (I'm using Win 7 Ultimate), it was as simple as pushing the newly-wired Reset button to get the system to shutdown. Then, a second press would boot directly into BIOS config. SO MUCH BETTER than having to press F8 a million times during boot. I'm sure this is old-hat to all the veteran OC'ers out there, but in case anyone is new to the process, this is a wonderful feature on the ASUS mobos. Especially since I rarely use the Reset button.
post #688 of 4087
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qrux View Post

It certainly lends credence to the theory that DRAM voltage contributes to IMC stress. So, if upping DRAM Voltage increases IMC stress, is there a knob to turn that mitigates that stress? Would that be increasing CPU/NB Voltage?

Thanks for all your further testing.

As for your question here. That's exactly right. To break it down it looks like this.

DRAM increase from stock -> Increase CPU/NB votlage -> Increases CPU thermals

It'd be interesting to know how much you need to increase your CPU/NB voltage to either run at the normal 1.5v and/or tighten the timings on your ram. Or even try to overclock your ram. Apparently you can run it up to 1.5v and at stock it's usually around 1.18v.
post #689 of 4087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qrux View Post

Yep.

While perhaps not 100% scientifically rigorous, after dropping DRAM Voltage to 1.4 V (down from 1.5 V, which saw a single core failure after 9.5 hours), I successfully completed another 12+ hour run of Prime95 Blend (75%).

That's 2 Blend runs at 75% with DRAM Voltage at 1.4 V that exceeded 12 hours, and 1 Blend run at 95% with DRAM Voltage at 1.5 V that failed at 9.5 hours. And that's using 4 sticks (4x8GB) at DDR3-1600, 11-11-11-30-2T.

So, I'm going to call it--"myth confirmed".

Seems pretty clear that the DRAM voltage drop helps stability...However, I'm curious about something...Seems like I'm using *exactly* 75% of RAM (I type in 24576 MB into the "Custom" Blend memory-usage). What is the likelihood that running Blend is only exercising 3 sticks? And therefore not pushing *ALL* the RAM? I don't think it's too likely, because, with the OS, running Blend was using up to 26.7 GB. But, I think it's probably better to intentionally stress as much memory as possible.

I'll run another test with 28 GB (87.5% mem) for Prime95 (28672 MB in Custom)...

Oh--on a totally different note...For those who don't have cases that have a "DirectKey" button, it's simple to wire the Reset button into the DirectKey pins on the mobo. That was a HUGE, HUGE timesaver. thumb.gif

After connecting the Reset button that way, with the ASUS drivers installed (I'm using Win 7 Ultimate), it was as simple as pushing the newly-wired Reset button to get the system to shutdown. Then, a second press would boot directly into BIOS config. SO MUCH BETTER than having to press F8 a million times during boot. I'm sure this is old-hat to all the veteran OC'ers out there, but in case anyone is new to the process, this is a wonderful feature on the ASUS mobos. Especially since I rarely use the Reset button.

Theres also direct bios on the disc that came with it, a desktop icon so you dont have to hardwire the reset button lol also with you populating all 4 ram slots you are adding strain to the imc so using stock 1.5v and stick timings for your ram you will see a core or two fail in prime95 and anything above 16gb is hardly ever going to be used in everyday use or gaming, unless you have a reason for using 32gb ram?
post #690 of 4087
Watching this thread continues to be very interesting. I have been completely stable in all tests 12+ hours each test @ 4000 stock volts (1.368)

So I was doing some comparison testing running SuperPi mod v1.5 while I expected Piledriver to lag the old Phenom II X4 BE chips in single threaded performance, the results surprised me

at 3.6 a 4 core Thuban on a modern DDR3 1600 box slightly beat my old 955BE also running at 3.6 but on an old DDR2 800 box. My 6300 running at 4000 with DDR3 1866 was trounced! (approx 4M score 1.049 v 1.051 v 2.07) Holy crap! bigeyedsmiley.png. I played with a software overclock (using the excellent AI SUITE II tools), and did not regain the lead until 4500.

Based on test results I knew a stock 980BE (3.7) trounced a FX6300 in single thread performance, but would have thought by 4000 -4100 it would have caught up (especially give the FX platform's faster memory.

This in line with what others have seen?

Guess I am going to have to take it up a bit, to at least 4200 -4300 rolleyes.gif
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