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Low Power, Modest Performance Chiller Suggestions? - Page 3

post #21 of 28
On a 3770k with a big OC I would recommend the Quad, not the single. I may sell mine eventually to go Quad, or maybe sell my top rad and run a chiller in series with it, using the front one on the chillers hot side...

I am finding the limits of the little single to be at around 4.7ghz/1.37v on an IB. At those settings, and 100% duty cycle, it cannot chill the block below ~6-7c during extended P95 or IBT sessions. Not a huge deal if you aren't a long run Prime/IBT junkie (I personally find their value debatable).

For normal gaming it will hold the block at 1c all day, and the CPU temp won't break 30c, which is impressive...but once a TEC gets maxed out its efficiency drops dramatically and starts to heat the chip up, and while stressing all cores for an extended period of time the temps creep all the way up to ~62c and my water temps go nuts, up to 31c. That is with a MCP320 360 top rad and an Aquacomputer Airplex 240 in series.

Still very admirable, considering I am hitting it with well above its rated "130 watt" capability, so it goes above and beyond what Arqtik rate it at smile.gif.
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post #22 of 28
Thread Starter 
The original point I was making in this thread is that it seems like a lot of overclockers could benefit from using a single TEC to augment their rigs without adding enormously its daily power usage. I find that a lot of overclockers are running their chips really hot in order to squeeze as much as they can from the parts they have. I'm certainly guilty of this myself. This means that while benching, it's not uncommon to see guys have sustained temps in the 90s and peaking in the 100s. 4.7ghz for me produces extremely high temps under full stress.

While doing my research on TECs, it seemed to me like the primary purpose of people in the forum was not just to achieve lower temps, but DRAMATICALLY low temps, often right at or below freezing. That's all well and good, and I personally find that kind of goal to be impressive, but I'm just looking to bring my face-melting temps down into the more reasonable range to extend the life of my chip and do that without adding 500+ watts of daily power consumption to my rig.

See, that's why I was specific about my temps and my goals of modest cooling performance. What you're telling me with disappointment, I'm seeing as very impressive.~62c under full stress is fantastic! I'd kill for that! 31c hotside water temps? That's great too! With my current water loop I'm getting 35.5c+ with nothing near the results you're getting.

Long story short, I'm not interested in freezing my chip; i just want to back off the "danger zone" a bit more. tongue.gif If you want to sell that SDD, let me know!
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzMac251 View Post

The original point I was making in this thread is that it seems like a lot of overclockers could benefit from using a single TEC to augment their rigs without adding enormously its daily power usage. I find that a lot of overclockers are running their chips really hot in order to squeeze as much as they can from the parts they have. I'm certainly guilty of this myself. This means that while benching, it's not uncommon to see guys have sustained temps in the 90s and peaking in the 100s. 4.7ghz for me produces extremely high temps under full stress.

While doing my research on TECs, it seemed to me like the primary purpose of people in the forum was not just to achieve lower temps, but DRAMATICALLY low temps, often right at or below freezing. That's all well and good, and I personally find that kind of goal to be impressive, but I'm just looking to bring my face-melting temps down into the more reasonable range to extend the life of my chip and do that without adding 500+ watts of daily power consumption to my rig.

See, that's why I was specific about my temps and my goals of modest cooling performance. What you're telling me with disappointment, I'm seeing as very impressive.~62c under full stress is fantastic! I'd kill for that! 31c hotside water temps? That's great too! With my current water loop I'm getting 35.5c+ with nothing near the results you're getting.

Long story short, I'm not interested in freezing my chip; i just want to back off the "danger zone" a bit more. tongue.gif If you want to sell that SDD, let me know!

For modest IB OCs, the SDD is amazing - even better then they advertise it as in my experience. The problem with TECs though is that the heat doesn't scale linearly with clocks/voltage like air or water. They hit a wall when they all of a sudden can't maintain a delta, and then temps skyrocket...

For example, @ 4.6ghz 1.30v my temps in IBT barely hit 50c. Just 100mhz more and .08v though and it hits 63c...thats 13c+ for only a 100mhz and +.08v. That tells me that I am creeping up on the limit of the TEC. As I get closer to eliminating its Delta, and push my chip any further (4.8? 4.9?) my temps will start to be the same as without the TEC (Delta 0), and eventually be worse then plain watercooling!

No fault of the unit, since it was developed with much cooler running SB chips in mind and wasn't made for the heat load I am giving it. If anything its a testament to the quality of work Arqtik puts out thumb.gif.

**edit** Just to clarify, if you only want a nice ~4.5ghz IB then the SDD is awesome. Even with dew point protection on and no insulating you will be cooler then plain watercooling. If you want to bench @ 4.8+ ghz though, you will need a stronger setup like their Quad - which will take anything you want to throw at it smile.gif
Edited by Puck - 1/25/13 at 6:05pm
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Behemoth
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post #24 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post

For modest IB OCs, the SDD is amazing - even better then they advertise it as in my experience. The problem with TECs though is that the heat doesn't scale linearly with clocks/voltage like air or water. They hit a wall when they all of a sudden can't maintain a delta, and then temps skyrocket...

For example, @ 4.6ghz 1.30v my temps in IBT barely hit 50c. Just 100mhz more and .08v though and it hits 63c...thats 13c+ for only a 100mhz and +.08v. That tells me that I am creeping up on the limit of the TEC. As I get closer to eliminating its Delta, and push my chip any further (4.8? 4.9?) my temps will start to be the same as without the TEC (Delta 0), and eventually be worse then plain watercooling!

No fault of the unit, since it was developed with much cooler running SB chips in mind and wasn't made for the heat load I am giving it. If anything its a testament to the quality of work Arqtik puts out thumb.gif.

**edit** Just to clarify, if you only want a nice ~4.5ghz IB then the SDD is awesome. Even with dew point protection on and no insulating you will be cooler then plain watercooling. If you want to bench @ 4.8+ ghz though, you will need a stronger setup like their Quad - which will take anything you want to throw at it smile.gif

I think I see what you're saying. Since my temps are already so high, I could have passed a while ago the point at which a TEC would maintain a good enough delta to be effective. You hit that TEC wall somewhere around 4.6-4.7ghz, after which temps started climbing very high very quickly, and it's likely that the results I'm seeing from your rig won't scale quite like I think they will when I apply it to mine. Is that right? Hmm. I wish I could just try one out...

Since I'm only running a dual-rad pull-only rig currently, I would think a TEC setup with a 2x dual rad + res would fair much better. The QDD is a cool piece of technology, but I really can't justify adding 300-500 watts of power to my rig. Does the QDD work in stages? That is, does it only use a single TEC if that's all that's necessary but power them all on if there's cause for it? That I would be interested in, but I was under the impression that they're all on all the time - maybe not consuming max wattage all the time, but they're certainly all on.
post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzMac251 View Post

I think I see what you're saying. Since my temps are already so high, I could have passed a while ago the point at which a TEC would maintain a good enough delta to be effective. You hit that TEC wall somewhere around 4.6-4.7ghz, after which temps started climbing very high very quickly, and it's likely that the results I'm seeing from your rig won't scale quite like I think they will when I apply it to mine. Is that right? Hmm. I wish I could just try one out...

Since I'm only running a dual-rad pull-only rig currently, I would think a TEC setup with a 2x dual rad + res would fair much better. The QDD is a cool piece of technology, but I really can't justify adding 300-500 watts of power to my rig. Does the QDD work in stages? That is, does it only use a single TEC if that's all that's necessary but power them all on if there's cause for it? That I would be interested in, but I was under the impression that they're all on all the time - maybe not consuming max wattage all the time, but they're certainly all on.
That is exactly what I am saying smile.gif. It is actually a triple rad and a dual rad in series, with a dual bay res and MCP655 pump...the amount of rad is plenty for the SDD, its just that the TEC itself is rated to 130w and a 4.7ghz 3770k is over 150w. A single dual in pull only would probably have a hard time with it though. On an SB like it was designed for it will hold mid-low 40s @ 4.8ghz, but that's not happening on an IB chip.

If you use the dew point controller then they are powered using PWM, which is effectively the same as what you are thinking. Basically, they are all switched on and off very quickly, with the percentage of time they are ON compared to OFF being the duty cycle. While not exact with TECs because of how they scale with voltage, if it was controlling 4 fans then 50% duty cycle is the same as running them all at half power, or having two on and two off at full power. I have the controller, but I insulated my motherboard and yanked the temp probe to trick it into semi- manual mode. I can't set the DC directly, but I can set the block temp as low as 1c and it will hold it there regardless of dew point.

Also keep in mind that different chips have different heat densities, so two chips can have the same cold plate temps on the IHS, but one will have a higher average core temp then the other. Mine seems to be a hot, current leaky one.
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post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post

For example, @ 4.6ghz 1.30v my temps in IBT barely hit 50c. Just 100mhz more and .08v though and it hits 63c...thats 13c+ for only a 100mhz and +.08v. That tells me that I am creeping up on the limit of the TEC. As I get closer to eliminating its Delta, and push my chip any further (4.8? 4.9?) my temps will start to be the same as without the TEC (Delta 0), and eventually be worse then plain watercooling!

I'm wonder if that isn't actually the thermal resistance of the IHS/Die. If the blocks temperature remains roughly the same, I think it's mostly in the CPU. That is, if the delta isn't approx the same (Block temp goes up by 2°C, CPU goes up by 4°C) it might be the CPU.

EDIT: Seems like you actually answered this, I just didn't read all the posts yet lol

The wall of that TEC is at about 275W (that is when run at 100%) from your CPU, but ya the effectiveness of the block will eventually be no better than regular water cooling if the water cooling can't keep up. But if you're no where near the wall it's likely the problem you were saying above.
Edited by Krow - 1/26/13 at 4:18pm
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post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krow View Post

I'm wonder if that isn't actually the thermal resistance of the IHS/Die. If the blocks temperature remains roughly the same, I think it's mostly in the CPU. That is, if the delta isn't approx the same (Block temp goes up by 2°C, CPU goes up by 4°C) it might be the CPU.

EDIT: Seems like you actually answered this, I just didn't read all the posts yet lol

The wall of that TEC is at about 275W (that is when run at 100%) from your CPU, but ya the effectiveness of the block will eventually be no better than regular water cooling if the water cooling can't keep up. But if you're no where near the wall it's likely the problem you were saying above.

At 4.6ghz the block can still hold 1c, but at 4.7 with a tad more voltage the block creeps up to 6-7c a few runs into IBT, which is where some of that 13c increase comes from smile.gif. I'm sure at that point more rad(or some real fans on my 280mm front rad!) will help, since my water temps are up to 30-31c with the TEC at 100%.

Still an impressive piece for a great price - while IBT gets it into the low 60s, normal use isn't anywhere near that... and not many people can game for two hours at 4.7ghz on a 3770k and not break ~40c thumb.gif.
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post #28 of 28
Thread Starter 
I'd be happy with 70's to low/mid 80's, myself. My chip is pretty power hungry, unfortunately.

Not to get too off topic, but I've found that I can actually significantly lower my voltage and still maintain system stability save for running Small FFTs on Prime 95. I ran IBT at all levels, including Max Stress, Xtreme mode without issue, and running large FFTs on Prime also goes off without a hitch. Small FFTs, though, causes insta-BSOD at anything below 1.425v. Not sure what is up with that. I have a thread about it here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1353821/3770k-4-7ghz-unusual-stability-test-results#post_19146776
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