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[Tom's Hardware] FX Vs. Core i7: Exploring CPU Bottlenecks And AMD CrossFire - Page 15

post #141 of 595
Not surprising, the Piledriver cores are surely better than Bulldozer, but only under very specific circumstances should you buy one. And one of those circumstances is if you have cheap electricity. Many people in the US are laughing, but in some European countries and other parts of the world electricity is not cheap, to the point you will make up the difference in cost in the lifetime of the CPU and then some. In Denmark, for example (see below), you'll start losing money with the Piledriver CPU after less than a year. When adding to that you take into consideration that the Intel chip provides more consistent performance, be it single threaded or multi-threaded, it's not even a question what CPU people who live in countries with expensive electricity should buy, Intel wins hands down.

I remind of one paragraph in the FX-8350 review that tells the story:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8350-vishera-review,3328-17.html


Quote:
But then there’s power to consider. In the United States, we’re blessed to have relatively inexpensive energy. We tend not to flip out over 50 W unless dissipating that heat requires a noisy fan. But if you’re in Denmark paying $.40/kWh, just the 10 W difference between Core i5 and FX-8350 at idle costs you several bucks per month. Under load, you’re looking at up to a $15-a-month difference for a system running 24/7. Advantage: Intel.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

THG are an entirely Intel/nVidia promotion site. There is no journalism there whatsoever and hasn't been for at least a decade. During the time of the P4 their reviews were never in line with other websites and used to 'report' that the P4 was not only equal to but was also superiour to the A64 when it was common knowledge that the P4 was sub par and a terrible architecture. I only visit that website when I have to but even then I don't trust a word of what they claim.

They even used to go on about how much better nVidia's 5xxx series were when ATI's 9600's and 9800's used to beat them to pulp (drivers aside).

THG are simply worthless and I simply assume they get paid to post propaganda, nothing more.


What on earth are you talking about ?

Pentium 4 Willamette:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/important-pentium-4-evaluation-update,265-4.html
Quote:
Let's summarize the latest findings:

Pentium 4 scores very badly in MPEG4 encoding benchmarks once the IEEE high quality iDCT is used.
Pentium 4 runs current office applications slower than Pentium 3 and much slower than AMD's Athlon, as proven in our Sysmark 2000 benchmark results from Monday.
Pentium 4 scores worse than Athlon in Unreal Tournament.
Pentium 4 is a very bad solution for compilations with gcc 2.95.2 under Linux.
Pentium 4 scores very badly in 3D Studio Max, proving a sub-par FPU.
Pentium 4 gets slightly beaten by Athlon in the 3D game MDK2.
Pentium 4 is badly losing out against Pentium 3 as well as Athlon in clock-for-clock comparisons.
Pentium 4 is currently the most expensive x86-system solution available.
BUT Pentium 4 is really good at Quake 3 Arena! Honestly!
Quote:
If you now consider that Pentium 4 systems are the most expensive PCs money can buy right now, then I wonder how any customer could possibly justify the purchase of Pentium 4 within the next months.

I have to admit that I started off being a believer in Pentium 4 and I still respect Pentium 4's future potential. However, right now I am genuinely disappointed. For the time being, I wouldn't let any of my friends or family members buy a Pentium 4 system. It's simply not justifiable.


Pentium 4 Prescott:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel,751-31.html
Quote:
Do you believe buying a Prescott processor is a future-proof investment? You really shouldn't, because that is what Intel wants us to believe, as the real generation and architecture change to socket 775, DDRII memory and PCI Express are few months away yet.
Quote:
At existing clock speeds, Prescott is not faster than Northwood and is thus a pretty useless product, as the socket is meant to be phased out shortly anyway.


Nvidia FX 5800 Ultra:

Here you have to take in consideration that when the FX 5800 Ultra was released the competing card from ATI was the 9700 Pro and not the 9800 Pro:
Quote:
The GeForceFX 5800 Ultra is irrefutably the fastest card in most of the tests - but at what price? The power of the FX relies on high clock speeds, which in turn require high voltages and produce an enormous amount of heat. The consequence is that extensive (and expensive) cooling is necessary. Add to that the DDR-II memory, the price of which is quite high, due to the small production numbers. Even the 12-layer board layout is complex and expensive.

It will be difficult for NVIDIA to push its GeForceFX 5800 Ultra. Radeon 9700 PRO cards are only slightly slower, and, because they've been out on the market for months now, they're much less expensive. Also, because they deliver 3D performance with much slower clock speeds, they do not require extensive cooling - and that's nice for your pocketbook as well as your ears.

Still, despite expectations to the contrary, the official price for the FX 5800 is $399 plus tax and that seems pretty aggressive and attractive. This makes it identical to the launch price of the GeForce4 Ti4600 and the ATI Radeon 9700 Pro. The "normal" version of the 5800 will be somewhat less expensive. It's surprising that the GeForceFX GPU, clocked at 500 MHz, only gains a small lead over the R300 GPU (VPU), which is modestly clocked at 325 MHz in comparison.

It remains to be seen how long NVIDIA, with its FX 5800, can maintain a lead over ATI. ATI has already started to hint at a faster-clocked R350 to come in the next weeks (according to rumor, it will have a 400-425 MHz core and 800 MHz memory).



When the FX 5900 Ultra was released this is what they had to say:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nvidia-geforcefx-5900-ultra,630-33.html
Quote:
After failing to fulfill very high expectations even a near-perfect card would have been hard-pressed to meet, the GeForceFX 5800 Ultra was often dismissed as a flop or a dud. While this is an overstatement in our opinion, the card did have its issues. For one, image quality with anisotropic filtering was disappointing, although as it turns out now, in this case the fault lay with the driver, and not with the chip itself. In addition, the card offered surprisingly low performance in high resolutions, thanks to its 128 bit memory bus bottleneck. Even though it used very fast DDR-II memory, the FX 5800 Ultra proved inferior to the Radeon 9800 PRO almost across the board. And lastly, the card will go down in history as the dustbuster, the card that came, saw and sucked (or blew, depending on perspective). The NV30's thermal characteristics had forced NVIDIA to design a cooling solution to cope with all this heat - the rest, as they say, is history.
Quote:
Today, NVIDIA is once again proving that it is a company that can learn from its mistakes. A mere three months after the troubled launch of the FX 5800 Ultra, we are seeing the introduction of a successor that addresses and fixes all of the weaknesses of the original part. The memory bus has been widened to 256 bits and the GPU has been treated to a number of refinements. Although NV35 runs 50 MHz slower than its older sibling, this is virtually unnoticeable. The fact is that the enormous bandwidth of the improved 256 bit memory interface can easily pick up the slack and then some. Now, the FX 5900 is able to outpace the Radeon 9800 PRO in all relevant benchmarks and can reclaim the performance throne for NVIDIA. The card offers unrivaled FSAA speed combined with very good anisotropic filtering image quality and performance, thanks to the new Detonator FX driver, giving it a comfortable lead over its rival. Only the quality of its ordered-grid FSAA implementation remains inferior to that of ATi's card, a disadvantage it can more than make up for in sheer speed.
Quote:
That isn't to say that the FX 5900 Ultra doesn't also have some drawbacks compared to the Radeon 9800 PRO. The NVIDIA design calls for a much larger board, which can lead to problems in certain smaller computer cases and on some mainboards. Even though the cooler has been redesigned, it still blocks the first PCI slot next to the AGP connector. And lastly, it is still by far the louder of the two cards.

You could say that the GeForceFX 5900 Ultra is everything the original FX 5800 Ultra should have been or, to use NVIDIA's slogan, it's "the way the FX is meant to be played!" Thanks to the numerous tweaks, improvements and refinements, the card is finally able to beat the Radeon 9800 PRO. Power users and enthusiasts will have a hard time finding a better alternative. We were also pleased to hear that NVIDIA will offer value versions of the FX 5900 as well. This will close the performance gap to the FX 5600, an idea that is reminiscent of the immensely popular GeForce4 Ti4200.

It is well known that Nvidia fixed many of the issues of the FX line with the FX 5900 Ultra, so these conclusions are not surprising.


But let's see what they had to say about the 9800 Pro, which came out between these two. If they were biased towards Nvidia, this is the review to tell it:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/strike-force,597-34.html
Quote:
The Radeon 9800 PRO makes an impressive showing, nullifying the slim lead NVIDIA's FX 5800 Ultra held over the Radeon 9700 PRO. While the newcomer achieves parity with the NVIDIA card in standard tests, it totally dominates the FX 5800 Ultra when it comes to FSAA and anisotropic filtering. Additionally, the ATi cards offer the better FSAA/ aniso implementation in our comparison. It remains to be seen whether this will change with future driver updates from NVIDIA. We'll take a closer look at image quality on both cards as soon as we have WHQL (or final) drivers for these cards.

In addition to its more compact design (single-slot solution) and its simpler (and much quieter) cooler, the Radeon 9800 PRO is also much faster than the FX 5800 Ultra in all important disciplines (FSAA, anisotropic filtering) and offers the best image quality with those features enabled. If you're looking for the fastest 3D accelerator currently available, the Radeon 9800 PRO is your chip. This doesn't make the GeForceFX 5800 Ultra a bad product by any means, but the leadership is once again firmly in ATi's hands.

Guess what ? They weren't biased at all, the 9800 Pro was considered the best card when it was released.

So, you may bash Tom's Hardware all you want, but history is proving you wrong!
Edited by tpi2007 - 1/24/13 at 5:31pm
 
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post #142 of 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

My apologies for not posting the whole review in the OP so you had to visit the "Source" link I posted on the top of the page.

Well he has a point. You should have just posted one of the conclusive graphs from the last page or posted two extremes in the OP, one showing how much the 3770k wins in one game and one of the ones you posted in a GPU bound situation.
post #143 of 595
Fx is amazing if you have already an am3+ mobo. Now if you play a lot of sc2 then intel is the only choice. The same if you want to go with 2 gpu.I dont want to spend 800 euro and use them with a 200 euro cpu. Insanity. I dont know why you even argue. Amd is great ,intel is great you have 2 options you choose the best for you.
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post #144 of 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarhell View Post

Fx is amazing if you have already an am3+ mobo. Now if you play a lot of sc2 then intel is the only choice. The same if you want to go with 2 gpu.I dont want to spend 800 euro and use them with a 200 euro cpu. Insanity. I dont know why you even argue. Amd is great ,intel is great you have 2 options you choose the best for you.

Who has AM3+? Those people that bought it waiting for BD which is the same thing really. Same goes for 1155. People bough it for SB and could upgrade to IVY if they wanted. Intel user for example 2600K user dont even have to upgrade. AMD is catching up but while someone with 2600K spend $300 when it came out, the AMD user is going 8150, 8350, 8550 etc and still technically catching up biggrin.gif.

@ tpi2007

What is Kilowatt hour in Europe?
I know in Canada is one of the cheapest like 8.7c in peak hours and 7c in non peak hours + i dont pay for electricity @ my building. If i leave my PC on 24/7 which i do with all the peripherals ~ 200W off the wall just idle, Under load 550-600W. Doing some maths ~ average 350wh which translates $266 + TAX + deleivery cost ~ $400. This is with cheap electricity lol.
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post #145 of 595
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derp View Post

Well he has a point. You should have just posted one of the conclusive graphs from the last page or posted two extremes in the OP, one showing how much the 3770k wins in one game and one of the ones you posted in a GPU bound situation.

My apologies, replaced one of the 2 BF3 chart with a Skyrim Chart.
Edited by sherlock - 1/24/13 at 5:42pm
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post #146 of 595
Whats up with BF3 getting less fps @ 1080p then the triple 1600x900.
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post #147 of 595
Why do all of these reviews test so few games? I know it's a lot of work to test a lot of games, but it really doesn't show a lot by testing 4 games.
post #148 of 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

@ tpi2007

What is Kilowatt hour in Europe?
I know in Canada is one of the cheapest like 8.7c in peak hours and 7c in non peak hours + i dont pay for electricity @ my building. If i leave my PC on 24/7 which i do with all the peripherals ~ 200W off the wall just idle, Under load 550-600W. Doing some maths ~ average 350wh which translates $266 + TAX + deleivery cost ~ $400. This is with cheap electricity lol.

The European Union has 27 countries as member states, and in all of them the electricity price is different, so I can't just tell you one value, we have some harmonised things in the EU, like the same type of taxes, but even in that regard, the tax rates themselves and who and which incomes belongs to which tax rates is for each country to determine. Gas prices are different too, to the point some people living near the border may opt to fill up the tank in the neighbouring country.

As the article says, in Denmark the price is $.40/kWh (figure given in US dollars I presume, to US readers), I don't know if there is any database with the electricity prices for all countries that are part of the EU.
Edited by tpi2007 - 1/24/13 at 6:05pm
 
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post #149 of 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

The European Union has 27 countries as member states, and in all of them the electricity price is different, so I can't just tell you one value, we have some harmonised things in the EU, like the same type of taxes, but even in that regard, the tax rates themselves and who and which incomes belongs to which tax rates is for each country to determine. Gas prices are different too, to the point some people living near the border may opt to fill up the tank in the neighbouring country.

As the article says, in Denmark the price is $.40/kWh (figure given in US dollars I presume, to US readers), I don't know if there is any database with the electricity prices for all countries that are part of the EU.

So if i where to run my PC there its ~ $100 a month or the extra power FX uses ~ $70 a year so in 2 years u pay off 3770K biggrin.gif.
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post #150 of 595
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Vanelay View Post

Why do all of these reviews test so few games? I know it's a lot of work to test a lot of games, but it really doesn't show a lot by testing 4 games.

The author mentioned he didn't bench Starcraft2 because it didn't support eyefinity, although it is not hard to guess the result of that bench anyway.
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Skylake 1080 FTW
(18 items)
 
XPS 15
(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6700K  ASUS Maximus VIII Ranger EVGA 1080 FTW TridentZ DDR4-3000 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung SM951 128GB Samsung 840 Pro 256 GB Muskin Reactor 1TB Seagate Baracuda 2TB ST2000DM001 HDD 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Seagate Baracuda 2TB ST2000DM001 HDD Corsair H110i GT Windows 10 Pro  Acer XB321HK 32" 4K G-sync 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair K70 Rapid Fire EVGA SuperNova 650 P2 NZXT H440 Black Logitech G900  
Mouse PadOther
Razer Vespula CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD - PFC Sinewave UPS Syst... 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-7700HQ 2.8Ghz(3.8Ghz Turbo) Dell XPS 15-9560 Nvidia GTX 1050 8GB DDR4-2400 
Hard DriveOSMonitor
256GB PCIE SSD Windows 10 Pro 15.6" 1080p 
  hide details  
Reply
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