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[Tom's Hardware] FX Vs. Core i7: Exploring CPU Bottlenecks And AMD CrossFire - Page 31

post #301 of 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Na, right thread, the video was posted here.

@junkerde So... What mods are you running, and what ones is he running that you can make a statement like that?
oops my bad, and I dont understand what you are talking about, mods? idk what statement you are talking about
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post #302 of 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

And any other form of overclocking is any harder? Give me a break, all OCing is knowing your limits and your BIOS. It's always the chip. Don't go acting all high and mighty because you play with LN2, there's no real difference.

Regardless, bringing bus clocking into the mix is still a show of skill, and to get that high you do have to know what you're doing. If you're going to put down his OC as skill-less, then you're putting down 99% of OCN as well since what he did is harder then most people who OC here.

I'm not questioning his AMD OCing, I'm saying his intel OC was pathetic, either because he's incompetent or because the board is crap. Either way the result is that the review shouldn't be trusted. Not to mention the beyond crazy results for FC3 for example.

also:
Quote:
Don't go acting all high and mighty because you play with LN2, there's no real difference.

Have you ever tried it?

LN2 and other extreme stuff has way more stuff for the OCer to do. You have to manually control the temp of the pot by pouring LN2 when needed, different benches need different temps at different times, you need to be able to insulate a board properly, depending on the situation you'll be soldering your board/GPU and adding caps and VRs, you need to deal with cold bugs, you'll be stripping down and optimizing your OS for different benches, you'll deal with software and hardware volt/temp reading differences, etc.

Please try it before you say it isn't harder than 24/7 ocing, because it is.
 
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post #303 of 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Na, right thread, the video was posted here.

@junkerde So... What mods are you running, and what ones is he running that you can make a statement like that?

Are you talking about my mods?

If so I have too many to name but they are graphically intensive. 2K full textures, redone cities, dense vegetation etc. Overall over 50+ graphical mods. I think Logan posted his Skyrim as having something like 50-60? I was hitting anywhere from 50-90 in intense fights. Mind you, I have a better graphics card - the 7950.


EDIT: Logan was also not running ANY mods to my knowledge. I doubt he would mod it as it just adds unnecessary time onto the benchmarking situation.
post #304 of 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by j3st3r View Post

I have a sneaking suspicion that he used the i5's STOCK benchmarks and the FX's overclocked. I just did a test on Skyrim with mods and I get higher FPS than he does on my stock 3770k.

The guy is a scam artist with nothing more in mind than to sway the public to another processor argument. Logan is trolling the AMD community. Well done.
Wrong thread.

I am assuming that the EVGA motherboard is lowering the performance of that system; their ITX system was awful.
post #305 of 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Vanelay View Post

Wrong thread.

I am assuming that the EVGA motherboard is lowering the performance of that system; their ITX system was awful.
dont mean to go off the ship here but, an evga stinger itx? that was just bad decision to compare
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post #306 of 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

And any other form of overclocking is any harder? Give me a break, all OCing is knowing your limits and your BIOS. It's always the chip. Don't go acting all high and mighty because you play with LN2, there's no real difference.

Regardless, bringing bus clocking into the mix is still a show of skill, and to get that high you do have to know what you're doing. If you're going to put down his OC as skill-less, then you're putting down 99% of OCN as well since what he did is harder then most people who OC here.

I'm not questioning his AMD OCing, I'm saying his intel OC was pathetic, either because he's incompetent or because the board is crap. Either way the result is that the review shouldn't be trusted. Not to mention the beyond crazy results for FC3 for example.

also:
Quote:
Don't go acting all high and mighty because you play with LN2, there's no real difference.

Have you ever tried it?

LN2 and other extreme stuff has way more stuff for the OCer to do. You have to manually control the temp of the pot by pouring LN2 when needed, different benches need different temps at different times, you need to be able to insulate a board properly, depending on the situation you'll be soldering your board/GPU and adding caps and VRs, you need to deal with cold bugs, you'll be stripping down and optimizing your OS for different benches, you'll deal with software and hardware volt/temp reading differences, etc.

Please try it before you say it isn't harder than 24/7 ocing, because it is.

Benching is not overclocking, so knock everything related off your list including the OS. Why did you even bother bringing this up?

Overclocking is messing with the voltages and other bios settings to get the desired result, knowing what to tweak to get there, and knowing the limitations you have for a given scenario. I would go so far as to say standard AMD overclocking (when you include the bus) is far harder then any intel OC, LN2 included. There are far more things to tweak and understand. Properly setting up (amount of LN2, insulating the board) could actually count since it's one more thing to know, but you know what? Water cooling is the same way. You need to know your loop, what to do in what order, and leak test.

So ya, LN2 is no different then normal overclocking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by junkerde View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Na, right thread, the video was posted here.

@junkerde So... What mods are you running, and what ones is he running that you can make a statement like that?
oops my bad, and I dont understand what you are talking about, mods? idk what statement you are talking about

Sorry, wrong name. tongue.gif I'll fix it.
Edited by KyadCK - 1/25/13 at 3:29pm
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post #307 of 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

Is it not common in benchmarks and OCs to disable all power saving features

If you disable power saving features, then complain about power consumption then you're just plain dumb...The point kinda works because the person who does care about power will not disable those features, but someone who doesn't care will disable them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j3st3r View Post

And therefore, they run like poo compared to the Intel equivalent.

They run slower, but it's completely unnoticeable 90% of the time, to say "they run like poo" makes it sound unplayable, the only game any AMD CPU will ever have trouble maxing out will be Starcraft, and that's only if you absolutely must have 60fps, as seen here.
On a side note, Intel can easily get to unstable FPS too in that game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j3st3r View Post

If modern processors, including the FX, do fine with 'lightly threaded' game why does the Intel CPU get 60+ fps in F1, Skyrim, SC2, WoW, Metro?

Erm, I get 60fps most of the time in a heavily (130+ mods) modded Skyrim at stock...My CPU is barely the limitation, and when it is the i5 3570k next to me also shows a bottleneck. I can't really speak for the rest as I haven't played them on this rig/don't play them ever. (I don't think I've heard of anyone recently playing F1, actually...WoW I know was maxed out on a HD4890 and Phenom II but then that was before the graphical updates and SC2 still is playable by far...Metro, I was running it well on HD4890 CFX with a Phenom II, let alone an FX-4170 @ 4.5Ghz and a HD7950.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

SC2 in heavy situations.

The same can be said of Intel in admittedly rare situations, however, games like Starcraft 2, Sins of a Solar Empire, etc can bring PCs to their knees because they need so much single-threaded CPU power...A Core i5 3570k @ 4.4Ghz still gets single digit FPS in a game that's mostly unupdated in terms of CPU optimization since 2008.
Quote:
Originally Posted by almighty15 View Post

I love watching people arguing over Heaven or using a benchmark to show how AMD can compete, or resorting to the old 'but it keeps up in BF3 and Crysis 2' argument.

Heaven's not a game and BF3 and Crysis 2 are not the only 2 games in the world...

Not a single game in top 20 most played in STEAM games list can use more then 4 threads....

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Infact a very very large amount only use 2 threads.......

And yet AMD owners only want new games benchmarked as people only play new games right? And old games don't matter rolleyes.gif

The problem with that logic is, there's only 2 games on the top 100 that I can't play at stable FPS due to my FX, and one of those is exactly the same as Intel, (10 player games with the largest fleets starts to lag like crazy in the late-game battles) the other one..well, that's one game that Intel runs well and AMD can't really do playable settings from what I've heard. Oh no! Call the fire department! Call the police! I can't play Planetside 2! (A game I've never even had any intentions of picking up, anyway)
Quote:
Originally Posted by almighty15 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

So from that point of view, we should throw Quake 3 into these reviews? 99.9% of single threaded games can easily be maxed on any current processor. I fail to see why they are brought into the discussion when we have new games that actually push the cpus and are far better to judge with. Technology isn't going backwards. Game engines are no different.

Dude, the biggest problem with reviews is that they only concentrate on the average framerate and not the framerate that matters, the minimum...

AMD CPU's produce low minimum FPS in single/dual threaded games because they have a low IPC.

That is just pure fact and a result of own personal experience...

And why bring old games into the mix? Did you not see the STEAM games chart? People are STILL PLAYING OLD GAMES...

The only modern games that have really really good multi-threading support if BF3 and Crysis 2, they are 2 shing examples of multi-threading done right..

Do I have to drag out the CPUz validations of my i5 and my FX again? You're talking out of your rear end if you think that AMD has significantly lower minimum FPS than Intel, it scales as with the CPU performance...They do have lower than a faster Intel CPU, but all things equal it's normal...It's like saying a HD7870 is slower than a HD7950. There's most likely 2-3 games total that I'd get unplayable FPS on AMD but not on Intel right now, that includes minimum FPS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

Yes, Quake 3 should be thrown into the mix. We are testing CPUs here so you fire up a good single threaded game, set the resolution to 800x600 and detail as low as it will go, and bask in the results. We are not testing the game...we are testing the CPUs. So if one CPU was running Quake 3 at a 800x600 resolution at 150fps and the other at 300 fps this would tell us that one CPU had double the single thread performance of the other (in reality you need to do several games and average them to rule out any code reasons).

If all you want to do max out any game today at 1080p at 60fps...get your self a cheap dual core (or preferably a AMD "APU") and team it up with a GPU that can do it. That requires no testing and no one wants to see benches of that. In this thread we are interested in CPU benchmarks and not how well a game engine will run. So it isn't really what they are running, but how it ran...new or old software doesn't make a lot of difference unless you are testing a specific instruction set or something. As long as there is a good range of different software tested you should get good results.

You need more than a dual core to max out BF3 MP among a few other games.
Also, testing games at low resolution shows literally nothing...Game engines act and behave completely differently to one another, all it tells you is that Quake 3 is faster at those settings on Intel than AMD, to get true results you'd still have to test the other games anyway, as they may manage to use the architecture more efficiently or many other possible things that pretty much makes low resolution gaming to test CPU differences a stupid thing to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuchler View Post

I only listen to what is on Tom's. Tom's the man. rolleyes.gif
Looks like the i7-3960X at 4.25GHz is only slightly faster than a stock x4 955.





Also, Alienware computer are the best. people with intel CPUs should only get nVidia GPUs
and if you have an AMD you should get ATI GPUs. I find threads like this very funny.

That couldn't be due to the fact most games are GPU bound? It's no use pointing it out, the fact of the matter is that most games rely on your GPU due to the massive emphasis placed on better graphics as opposed to physics, AI, stories, etc and that by the time most games are more CPU bound, they'll also probably be more multi-threaded letting the FX get closer to the i5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyco View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Nah, I dislike this ASRock, it has bad vdroop or something; I set 1.41v in the BIOS and it decides to go for 1.3v while dropping down to 1.2v sometimes, if I still had my UD3 I probably would, plus the UEFI lags something fierce and I'm considering going for whatever the Socket 2011 equivalent for Haswell is if they release an i7 3820 equivalent,

Off topic, but it might be helpful: I'm running the same motherboard as you and had a similar problem, but if you set the "cpu load-line calibrator" to either 1/4 or disable you should get very little vdroop if any at all. Also try the new beta bios v2.11, it has better memory support.

Awesome! Thanks, I'm a bit scared to flash my BIOS (Currently on 1.8 I believe) as for some reason my RAM won't work at 1866Mhz despite working at it before, I think it's the motherboard or the CPU.
    
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post #308 of 595
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

If you disable power saving features, then complain about power consumption then you're just plain dumb...The point kinda works because the person who does care about power will not disable those features, but someone who doesn't care will disable them.

It is not, by your logic people who buy Ivy Bridge/Kepler shouldn't overclock at all because that is "just plain dumb". I care about power consumption, but I want to overclock too, thus I buy an Ivy Bridge and disable power saving feature on it if it is need to stabilize my overclocking.

I like how in the Fermi days AMD guys cried oceans about the heat & power consumption, but when the table is now turned on Ivy and Kepler we get this no schlant "it is only 8 cents pwer KWh, and if you disable power saving features or OC with an Ivy you are just plain dumb".
Edited by sherlock - 1/25/13 at 3:52pm
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post #309 of 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Benching is not overclocking, so knock everything related off your list including the OS. Why did you even bother bringing this up?

Because people usually do something with an overclock? Including booting to an OS?
Quote:
Overclocking is messing with the voltages and other bios settings to get the desired result, knowing what to tweak to get there, and knowing the limitations you have for a given scenario.

And making sure that the OC actually works for what you want to do with it. Which is why LN2 is much harder. And running systems at extreme frequencies and temperatures will always make them more finicky, you just get a lot more stuff that you're not used to, you deal with more mishaps and so on. You can also take your time with normal overclocking, with extreme stuff? Not so much. LN2 only lasts for a small amount of time, you'll be running volts that can kill your chip etc. A race against the clock, unlike normal OCing.
Quote:
I would go so far as to say standard AMD overclocking (when you include the bus) is far harder then any intel OC, LN2 included. There are far more things to tweak and understand.

And you know this because you've obviously tried LN2 on intel? I'd say LN2 on AMD is easier than intel because you don't have to deal with cold bugs (with some rare exceptions) and other weird stuff. Just put in some good base settings, boot up, monitor temps, run an OCing utility or use something else to OC in windows and start tweaking, while still monitoring temps and volts with a MM etc.
Quote:
Properly setting up (amount of LN2, insulating the board) could actually count since it's one more thing to know, but you know what? Water cooling is the same way. You need to know your loop, what to do in what order, and leak test.

Coming from someone who runs air cooling, sets up watercooling loops, runs phase, uses DICE, and uses LN2, you definitely need to know more and come up with more solutions of your own with the extreme cooling methods.

Watercooling is almost plug and play these days, I'd agree with you if it was about picking up a car radiator, some random fittings from a store and garden hoses, then making a loop with those while having to fill it up and deal with protecting your hardware because the hoses were leaking.

air < water < phase < LN2 < DICE in terms of difficulty in my opinion.
Quote:
So ya, LN2 is no different then normal overclocking.

Nope, it isn't.

And after all that you didn't address the Logan point at all... Either he has a crappy board or he is a crappy OCer, the end result is the same. Bad review is bad.
 
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post #310 of 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherlock View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

If you disable power saving features, then complain about power consumption then you're just plain dumb...The point kinda works because the person who does care about power will not disable those features, but someone who doesn't care will disable them.

It is not, by your logic people who buy Ivy Bridge/Kepler shouldn't overclock at all because that is "just plain dumb". I care about power consumption, but I want to overclock too, thus I buy an Ivy Bridge and disable power saving feature on it for my overclocking.

OK, you can do this for AMD, so I assume it works on Intel too.

Once you find your stable OC, you turn Cool'n'Quiet back on. Why? Because, when idle, it drops the speed and voltage way down for less power consumption.

Are you telling me you can't re-enable SpeedStep after you find your stable OC? Because that would be strange.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Benching is not overclocking, so knock everything related off your list including the OS. Why did you even bother bringing this up?

Because people usually do something with an overclock? Including booting to an OS?
Quote:
Overclocking is messing with the voltages and other bios settings to get the desired result, knowing what to tweak to get there, and knowing the limitations you have for a given scenario.

And making sure that the OC actually works for what you want to do with it. Which is why LN2 is much harder. And running systems at extreme frequencies and temperatures will always make them more finicky, you just get a lot more stuff that you're not used to, you deal with more mishaps and so on. You can also take your time with normal overclocking, with extreme stuff? Not so much. LN2 only lasts for a small amount of time, you'll be running volts that can kill your chip etc. A race against the clock, unlike normal OCing.
Quote:
I would go so far as to say standard AMD overclocking (when you include the bus) is far harder then any intel OC, LN2 included. There are far more things to tweak and understand.

And you know this because you've obviously tried LN2 on intel? I'd say LN2 on AMD is easier than intel because you don't have to deal with cold bugs (with some rare exceptions) and other weird stuff. Just put in some good base settings, boot up, monitor temps, run an OCing utility or use something else to OC in windows and start tweaking, while still monitoring temps and volts with a MM etc.
Quote:
Properly setting up (amount of LN2, insulating the board) could actually count since it's one more thing to know, but you know what? Water cooling is the same way. You need to know your loop, what to do in what order, and leak test.

Coming from someone who runs air cooling, sets up watercooling loops, runs phase, uses DICE, and uses LN2, you definitely need to know more and come up with more solutions of your own with the extreme cooling methods.

Watercooling is almost plug and play these days, I'd agree with you if it was about picking up a car radiator, some random fittings from a store and garden hoses, then making a loop with those while having to fill it up and deal with protecting your hardware because the hoses were leaking.

air < water < phase < LN2 < DICE in terms of difficulty in my opinion.
Quote:
So ya, LN2 is no different then normal overclocking.

Nope, it isn't.

And after all that you didn't address the Logan point at all... Either he has a crappy board or he is a crappy OCer, the end result is the same. Bad review is bad.

Booting into an OS is not benchmarking, and you do not need a cut down OS. If you do need a cut down OS because your normal one doesn't work, then I guess you aren't stable, huh? Completely useless argument anyway, because benchmarking is not overclocking and vice versa.

You have yet to actually name one thing that makes overclocking harder with LN2 besides knowing how much LN2 to pour in, which only effects Intel anyway, and is keeping temps in check. It's the same exact thing.
Edited by KyadCK - 1/25/13 at 3:59pm
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